Featured Lobby Monday Map Testing

[Psychoduck]

Post feedback for the following maps below:

Ferrous by CommanderColson: asymmetrical junkyard map (Strongholds)

Fracture by Squally DaBeanz: Symmetrical snowy map with bridges, a tunnel, and Mantises (CTF)

Kizingo by alex quit: Asymmetrical nighttime urban map (Strongholds)

Artemis by The Fated Fire & The Psycho Duck: Symmetrical snowy Forerunner map (CTF)

Hangout by MartianMallCop: Asymmetrical toon-town map with a banshee (Strongholds)

Badger Cliffs by CDX34: Symmetrical canyon map with a large bridge (CTF)

Eagle Square by SHIFTY time: Inversely symmetrical urban map with a highway overpass (CTF)

MBCM by RipShaDe 41: Symmetrical urban map with a central skyscraper (CTF)

The Cradle by HalfDemonANBU: Large symmetrical map with moving gondolas (Strongholds)

Gallows by BlazeDillon: Inversely symmetrical map with banshees (Slayer)

 

[BlazeDillon]

Gallows - This is the only map that i actually didnt have fun on. The map felt very open and large. The fact that there is two banshees is also kinda bad. At one point the enemy team had both banshees and it was too hard to take them out. The rocket hog didnt help either since the banshee could maneuver all shots. I dont think its a bad map but i do think it could use some work like less segmentation and more overlapping paths. I do think maybe another playtest would be need to get a better feel of the map and i think objective should be tested.
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Thank you for the feedback on Gallows! I wasn't sure how the banshees would work but I figured with the vertical segmentation and 2 rocket launchers on the map that it would be worth a test at least.

For people giving feedback after this post, would you guys like to see the map altered to support the banshees? Or take them out and progress from there? My focus is to make this a little more casual pub BTB style but only because of feedback that I got on the original where only competitive players had fun on the map due to punishing, restrictive movement and arena-like weapon sets. So I can pull it toward either direction and I'm all ears for suggestions!

Thanks everyone. Keep in mind that this was the very first playtest on this map. I haven't gotten to see even the most obvious faults. Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[MartianMallCop]

Ferrous- Alot of fun playing this one. My only issue was spawning really. The red teams side looks really good and I'm a fan of the subtle color designation.
Fracture- This is best the fracture has played yet. Many subtle improvements. Didn't get to play the idea labelled version but I know you are aware of the bad flag route through bottom mid. The loss of gravity lifts made me sad but it was definitely a necessary change. Cover barriers to the left and the right of the turret make it awkward and frustrating to turn and shoot with it. Middle building still feels very maze like and I question why their is even a death pit in there... It feels a little arbitrary.
Kzingo- map played really well for the most part but I'd recommend making the Stronghold by blue side have a bit more advantages.
Artemis - sick new name. My main concern is still with the ability of players to take sniper to their base and passively snipe, which I was on the receiving end a few times in the game.
Hangout- I'm going to investigate Stronghold and weapon placement.
The cradle- very interesting concept. I love the concept of the moving gondolas and there was some very interesting stuff on this map. Tanks felt useless and the only vehicles on the map that really felt that they enhanced the gameplay was the banshee. Strongholds probably shouldn't be on a moving platform.
Gallows - This map was fairly overscaled. Vehicle routes were too big throughout the map, banshees probably should never be on the map due to its current open nature. Also I felt the map was very gridlike and boring. Everything was kinda just on right angles and many party of the map were just flat planes. I like the concept of this map but I personally think it needs a redesign with much more vertical interaction and angles, curves and some more interesting geometry.

 

[Skyward Shoe]

Ferrous by CommanderColson: This map has come a long way. The new geometry is scaled just right at this point, which is a welcome change. All three zones felt important and worth holding, even Red Vat, though it was still a little weaker than the other two. I have yet to get a good warthog run on the map, but hopefully sometime soon I can try it out. Ghosts felt really nice.

Fracture by Squally DaBeanz: Fracture is a lot better now than it was when I last played it. The scaling is nice and tight and I felt that each area of the map was useful to be in. The flag route through baskets did seem a bit powerful, but that may have been a fluke. You might consider moving the flags so that there is less incentive to immediately jump down the one side of the base, which might help create more variable flag runs.

Kizingo by alex quit:Strongholds on Kizingo was pretty tough. The upper balconies around plaza offer too much control over the entire middle section of the map, and the connection to Load Zone allows for an easy hold that spawn traps one team into the back by East Gate. Also, it's a little difficult to move the hog along some of the roads, especially the one really steep hill. You might want to look into making it easier to move around the map without flipping the warthog.

Artemis by The Fated Fire & Psychoduck : Artemis was a very interesting experience. The lifts are pretty fantastic and the ghost usage on the map is superb. That said, I can't imagine getting in a warthog on the map due to how it fits into the Halo 5 sandbox. As we talked about last night, if this was the Halo 4 warthog (without the whole 1-stick and it is dead problem of course) then I think the geometry would be perfect, but the current vehicle is too bouncy and it is far too easy to shoot a gunner out in such confined paths. This just might be more of a ghost map.

Hangout by MartianMallCop: I would strongly suggest rebalancing the vehicle/ initial spawn positioning. While the balance you are trying to pull off is interesting in theory, giving one team the banshee is handing them the most powerful tool on the map. The warthog, while effective at times, is really no match for it. I'd like to see a somewhat more neutral set of initial rushes rather than each team getting something off of the bat. I do like the way that the banshee feels on the map compared to the phaeton. I'd also like to see Cafe objective moved down towards the lower reaches of the map. Cafe is so strong right now and dominates as a sniping position. It might even be a good idea to move sniper down, as I was able to easily grab it and move up slide into cafe to snipe, and I never felt any need to move.

Badger Cliffs by CDX34: This map was quite flat, very large, and was absolutely dominated by the banshees. To create interesting engagements you need more than fields with a few walls in them. Think about what kind of maps are exciting for you to play on, and in which areas you enjoy moving through and shooting in. Usually these involve verticality, players moving up and down levels and shooting between them. Remember also that maps don't need to be huge. If players have to sprint for 10+ seconds across a field to reach anything, it could probably be smaller. Players want to get right into the action, not spend their time running across the map to find a fight. Keep this in mind for the future.

Eagle Square by SHIFTY time: The tops of the bases seemed pretty powerful, and were not easy to push due to how raised up they were compared to their surroundings. I'd like to see them brought down a bit and integrated with the areas around them, allowing for pushes to the top of the base to come from outside of it as well as inside.

MBCM by RipShaDe 41: I feel that middle building and middle plaza are both still a tad over-scaled. The geometry feels larger than it needs to be and there are some very long, flat sections. Bringing the building further into the plaza and tightening the whole thing up might make both spaces more interesting to move through and create more interesting engagements than shooting across long flat planes.

The Cradle by HalfDemonANBU: I actually like a lot of the base geometry on this map. The gondolas might be gimmicky, but for a more casual BTB experience they are fun, and the incredible verticality actually created some interesting encounters. However, the heavy vehicle mayhem was too over the top. A scorpion, 2 wraths, a mantis, shade turrets, ghosts, and hogs? I'd like to see a focus towards one to three vehicles, and not three heavy vehicles either. The neutral mantis and scorpion were quickly demolished by teams fighting over them at spawn anyway. With the moving gondolas and extreme height variation I would think banshees would be an interesting vehicle choice, as they can make use of all of the space on the map. The wraiths weren't terrible, but didn't have a lot of freedom to move either. Having one objective on the gondola was interesting, but they are already powerful enough as power positions, so I don't think it worked well. I'd prefer to see the objectives rearranged in more of a triangle formation.

Gallows by BlazeDillon: Gallows had all of the problems that the H2A version had as well as many new ones. The map is now even larger than before, leading to more fights over long, flat lines of sight and more time sprinting around to find a new one. Where there was cover it was almost always at 90 degree angles. Curves and less intense angles can create more interesting engagements where players can use the wall curvature during fights to block or open lines of sight. The map geometry was so open to aerial fire that the banshees were able to dominate for much of the map. Banshees are very powerful vehicles, and in order to make them work on a map you have to find ways to limit their power, through both map geometry and weapon placement. A 2-base with a central bridge isn't necessarily a bad concept, but as executed here it is not offering any interesting opportunities for players to fight.

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Hopefully I'll have my current project testable by next Monday. I'd like to get that going and catch up with some of the other BTB maps I've seen refined over the course of the last few months.

 

[Psychoduck]

Ferrous

New changes seem solid all around. I would say that Red Vat still feels disconnected from the other territories, but testing demonstrated that holding it is still a viable strategy. Experimenting with an additional route up from Blue Trench may be worthwhile. That area is incredibly dangerous and it's somewhat unintuitive that the caves do not really lead anywhere. Right now, a player's options in this area are to hide out in the cave or to chance winding all the way around to get back up top. The sun glare also seriously nerfs players attempting to hold this territory from within and looking up at attackers. It's great that the objective encourages teams to control surrounding positions; it just wouldn't hurt to make that upper level a bit more accessible. There appears to be a Plasma Caster on the map which is not situated on a weapon pad; it needs to be.​

Fracture

The map's scaling and inclusion of the Mantises appear to now be in a good place (though the pair of Railguns is arguably a bit overbearing). The biggest challenge which lies ahead for this map is in flag movement. The partition in the central structure I described last night is worth considering, even at the cost of that vehicle route (vehicles could still perform that jump and simply go to one side or the other in my vision for it). Making the landing pad a bit more exposed will help as well. Beyond that, it's a question of how to situate the flags within the bases. All of the current candidates appear to too heavily incentivize flag movement in a specific direction. Rethinking the bases, both the interior and the entrances, may be necessary to alleviate this issue. I still believe the man cannons to be necessary as they are incredibly risky to take the flag through, but equally potent for empowering individual movement across the map and giving players an opportunity to prevent runaway flag caps.​

Kizingo

Strongholds definitely seems a better fit for this map than CTF due to the asymmetry and general layout. Eastgate is quite cut off currently, however. If the tall building on blue side was better able to defend this territory, pairing it with Plaza would be a more viable hold. Speaking of Plaza, the alcove directly behind it was an extremely powerful location to hold it from. A player with rockets and a DMR can singlehandedly hold that territory. This is currently one of the most enjoyable maps to use a 'hog on in my opinion, so it's great to see that they have the potential to interact with the territories so much. Blue Team's base seems quite underutilized in Strongholds currently, but hopefully a more viable Eastgate will amend that.​

Hangout

The opening imbalance brought about by the asymmetrical vehicle set is interesting, but is ultimately problematic. Yes, a team using the Warthog and the Railgun together can effectively counter the Banshee. However, this requires a lot of coordination and ties up three players from one team in order to counter one from the opposing team. The resources it costs a team to counter that Banshee in the initial encounter are ones which cannot be used to push out and control Strongholds and other positions. This, combined with its proximity to the upper levels, makes the Sniper Rifle really favor Blue Team as well. Rethinking how the weapons and vehicles are placed on the map is necessary. The Stronghold placement itself seems solid and the new route to the back of Cafe is a great addition.​

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I'll get feedback for the remaining maps out later today.

 

[CDX34]

*Ferrous - I found Red Vat to be a very under used area after the initial capture of the point, it also felt very easy to defend, however I'm not sure if that was due to the approach routes or the general lack of players in that part of the map. I also noticed a spawn next to Blue Trench that was very close the the Rocket Launcher weapon pad. The vehicles on the map were noticeable and worth using, but not overpowered. Overall a fun and well detailed map.

*Fracture - In the right hands, the Railguns are exceptionally good at map control, most notably from the middle building's ledge overlooking either bridge and the Railgun weapon pads. I didn't notice the vehicles on this map being used all that much, and when I did, they were quickly destroyed. Aside from this, the map looks amazing, and is easy to navigate(and that's coming from the guy who gets lost on Bloodgulch).

*Kizingo - The ledge overlooking Plaza from Hotel 3 is a very powerful position, and once the enemy team had control of that area, it seemed impossible to get them out. The Plaza stronhold itself also feels very open, it's possible that if it were moved slightly farther away from the Rocket Launcher both these problems could be fixed, but I'm no expert. Load Zone seemed like a spawn trap area, but this may be due to how the stronholds gametype works. The vehicle routes felt just the right size to Me, and were detailed enough to know just where to go.

*Artemis - The Active Camo and Warthog on this map went mostly unnoticed by My team when I played on this map, but that's about the only "faults" I can find on the map. The Snipers and Overshield were well balanced in terms of both location and power, the Energy Sword was a unique surprise, and I love the way the map looks.

*Hangout - I can't say much about this map, as I spent most of My time on it hanging in Cafe taking pot-shots with the carbine. I will say these lines of sight are very well balanced, but the staircase leading in to this area is a little to easily camped.

*Badger Cliffs - I'd just like to apologize for the massive reservoir of badger poop I called a map. And no, nobody called it that, that's the actual opinion I had after playing it. When I made the map, I took three concepts that were already difficult to make correctly, and threw them together a little to carelessly. I'm already working on redesigning the entire map in such a way that it will hopefully fix at least some of the many problems the original had.

*Eagle Square - I honestly couldn't get a good feel for this map. I continually found Myself lost, with little indication of where to go. This may however be in no small part due to My being unfocused with the game at the time.

*MBCM - I think that's how it's spelled. This was the last map I played before leaving the lobby to sleep, and I found three minor problems with it. First, the train and rail above it, by the Rocket spawn. When standing on top of the train the space between it and the rail looks like it can be easily walked through, but is just barely too short and has to be crouched through. While I can just go around, this lead Me to getting stuck there multiple times throughout the match. Second, I found Myself repeatedly spawning right next to the Rocket Launch weapon pad. This seemed like it could get powerful, fast, if unchecked. Third, if a team's flag is dropped out their base's front window, all the enemy team has to do is throw bodies at the flag, and they'll most likely get the capture. Visually, the map is amazing, and the different routes flow very well.

 

[Psychoduck]

Badger Cliffs

Attempting to create interesting flow when the map is split down the center and connected by only a single linear bridge is fighting a losing battle. This is exacerbated by the Binary Rifles and Banshees which are capable of melting anyone unfortunate enough to be caught between the two sides of the map. Using teleporters to add additional movement is not an optimal solution either. Tug of war maps which create standoffs and force teams to make creative, big plays to break them have plenty of merit, but achieving this still requires numerous routes. This iteration of the map is also very flat with only simple parallel and perpendicular single-purpose geometry (walls) breaking up the otherwise incredibly long lines of sight. These open sightlines and the size of spaces dilute engagements, slow pacing, and make sprint and vehicles a necessity to move. Significant descaling, the addition of meaningful height variation and vertical overlap, and the addition of multiple routes connecting the two sides of the map, each with its own advantages and disadvantages, are necessary. This map's Boarding Action style cross-canyon standoffs have a lot of potential if these changes are made.​

Eagle Square

The new geometry bottom mid was a fantastic change. The hallways connecting the bases to the Strongholds corners are still somewhat mazelike and I still recommend placing the ghosts in said corners. CTF is definitely this map's standout mode. The bases in particular provide lots of unique options. They become very interesting during standoffs where teams are simultaneously trying to protect their carrier and send players out to sneak into the opponents' base. The map geometry strikes a pretty nice balance between long and short range, vehicle and infantry spaces while still creating enough interaction between the latter two.​

MBCM

Most of the issues with this map merely resulted from ours being the first playtests it had gotten. Spawning needs an overhaul. Power ups should not be on weapon pads. Sidewalks are still very bumpy to transfer to from the roads. The hotel and some other map geometry is visually incomplete. These are all small things that I'm sure will be addressed before further testing and, discounting these, the map played quite well for the most part. Scaling did feel a bit too big in some areas, particularly some of the flatter spaces surrounding the hotel. As it stands, the subway has no discernible inherent value, meaning that it requires an extrinsic or artificial means of attracting players such as a powerful weapon. These solutions are never optimal, however and having an intrinsic value to every location on a map is important. This area might be worth keeping if it will somehow play a larger role in Strongholds, but removing it altogether is recommended. The routes, positions, and overall geometry and layout of the rest of the map seem very solid so far.​

The Cradle

I definitely admire the creativity and artistry that went into creating the Forerunner spires and gondolas on this map; it immerses players in a unique environment in a way that few forge maps can. However, I still have several gameplay concerns. The map is still massive and, while the large vertical difference is appreciated, the lateral distances throughout the map are arguably still too large. The gondolas do provide some unique and exciting options for traversing said space, though. The real issue that is holding this map back is the vehicle set. Almost every notable location on the map seems to house one heavy vehicle or another and this overabundance of firepower makes traversing the map on foot next to impossible and generally does a disservice to the interesting geometry the map provides. Focusing on a smaller selection of vehicles which complement the map in specific ways is necessary. For example, Banshees are interesting in that they can interact with players on the gondolas and can participate in the vertical gameplay that players on foot are experiencing. But, what role do the Wraiths play? The Scorpions? The Mantis? If you can't answer these questions, then these vehicles are likely not necessary. Toning down the vehicles will allow more unique aspects of the map to shine through and to be assessed.​

Gallows

This map is far too large. Not only is the distance from base to base excessive, but the scale of individual areas is far too large as well. To traverse these spaces, players must sprint for long periods. Pacing is slow and teams are unable to make meaningful plays together because there is simply far too much ground to cover. What's more, the geometry in these areas is incredibly simplistic with wide open flat expanses and minimal height variation or meaningful vertical gameplay. Lines of sight are broken up by a cookie cutter assortment of parallel and perpendicular two-dimensional geometry. This results in stale and shallow engagements throughout. The outdoor spaces are incredibly unattractive to players on foot because of the flatness, openness, and overscaling as well as the lack of aerial cover from the Banshees which are absolutely dominant. Infantry stick to the interiors wherever possible, but engagements in these spaces are as stale and devoid of depth as those in the exterior spaces. The exteriors also fail to deliver interesting geometry for vehicles due to their simplicity. Because infantry and vehicles are so separated, there is no meaningful interaction between the two. BTB maps should offer infantry vs infantry engagements and vehicle vs vehicle engagements, but it's the infantry vs vehicle engagements that truly make BTB unique. That is entirely missing from this map with the exception of the Banshees' ability to rain death on anyone caught outside on foot. This map would benefit from significant descaling, the removal of banshees or the addition of aerial cover, and a focus on height variation and multi-purpose geometry rather than flat geometric spaces and two-dimensional walls.​

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That wraps up my feedback for this lobby. Thanks to everyone who attended, and especially those who are taking the time to write up feedback. This lobby will return next Monday at the same time, likely with more BTB testing. In the mean time, feel free to share any improvements you're making to your maps in the WAYWO thread.

 

[BlazeDillon]

I got a bit to go off of. Thank you guys. Sounds like my main downfall is the same as many of the on disk maps that I took inspiration from like standoff, rats nest and isolation in that most of the vertical combat happens within the same or only one level apart as well as vehicle over dominance.

I was taking a chance with the banshees just to say I explored the possibility and that was obviously a big no. As for the 90 degree angles, most were plan to evolve anyway, so that's good. The scaling is actually very small in comparison to some of the maps in matchmaking at the moment but the segmentation makes it seem far larger. Thanks to all of your feedback and from my desires for the original design I have a good Idea of the changes I want to move forward with on this design.

 

[HalfDemonANBU]

Thanks everyone for the feedback , very insightful stuff.

It really makes sense to focus the attention on just a few vehicles based on their function in the map, didn't think of it that way. As for the strongholds, I do think I will be moving them into a triangular formation and staticly placed. I'm considering scaling down the map as well even further, or maybe remove some extra paths that people didn't seem to use. Maybe create terrain that gives the Wraith more of a purpose.

Anyways, lots to go on. I'm really grateful for these constructive and astute observations (and the kind words), can't wait to keep reiterating until it works, thanks again guys. Hopefully, see y'all next week with the new version.

p.s. Some of these other maps are pretty darn amazing, gotta say I'm impressed =]

 

[RipShaDe 41]

are more people going to leave feedback, i mean we had 16 ppl lol

 

[CommanderColson]

I got a bit to go off of. Thank you guys. Sounds like my main downfall is the same as many of the on disk maps that I took inspiration from like standoff, rats nest and isolation in that most of the vertical combat happens within the same or only one level apart as well as vehicle over dominance.

I was taking a chance with the banshees just to say I explored the possibility and that was obviously a big no. As for the 90 degree angles, most were plan to evolve anyway, so that's good. The scaling is actually very small in comparison to some of the maps in matchmaking at the moment but the segmentation makes it seem far larger. Thanks to all of your feedback and from my desires for the original design I have a good Idea of the changes I want to move forward with on this design.

You need to downscale big time

 

[JLP9999]

Please take my feedback with a grain of salt. I'm quite new to critiquing forge maps so im not nearly as qualified to provide meaningful feedback.

Ferrous: It's really something when a map plays as good as it looks. Both the visuals and gameplay come together to provide an experiences on par with 343i's non-forge offerings. The only morsel of criticism I can provide is that Red Vat feels like the odd one out when compared to the more meaningful strongholds that provide several angles of approach. Red Vat's position over a mostly linear pathway makes it less appealing for defense and at several points I found myself capturing it alone without much resistance. I also encountered a bizarre issue with the kill volume placed in Alpine's lake, which caused my warthog to spontaneously explode when perusing the shore near Red Vat.

Fracture: I love how the geometry here complements vehicle and infantry-based play without compromising one another. Though the abundance of power weapons placed outside might be screwing with intended meta by forcing players in vehicles to stick the tunnels where they aren't at the mercy of a pair of face-melting railguns.

Kizingo: Warthogs are ton a fun on this map. I love how the geometry rolls up and down vertically while retaining the urban aesthetic. I found myself crashing my vehicle occasionally(though this might be a byproduct of my inept driving skills). One thing I will point out is that the stronghold at Eastgate feels bit isolated and a little frustrating to capture unless backed up by several players to counter the high ground.

Artemis: I'll admit that I almost forgot that this map had a Warthog at one point, but mostly because this map plays so great with infantry alone. The conservative use of space and the variance in routes made for some incredibly tense Flag runs.

Hangout: As much as I love the emphasis on verticality, I feel it's sorta at odds with the single banshee handed to one team right off the bat. I never really saw the Warthog being used here since all the action is taking place above. As a result, the means to effectively combat the banshee means more busy work for one team while the other can dedicate time to the strongholds. On another note, the stronghold on cafe might possess too much of a tactical advantage, especially when you're backed up by a squad of carbines and BRs. I do love the urban aesthetic though.

Badger Cliffs: This map feels like the product of several cool concepts not thoroughly explored to their fullest effect. A single bridge between two separate bases seems great for tense tug of war battles but the simplistic and wide open spaces make encounters feel tactless, where the only winning strategies are shooting first in an exchange or being backed up by more players. The bridge itself feels too simple and too large to provide interesting confrontations. The teleporters feel like a band-aid solution to this issue, eliminating the bridge entirely to improve travel times. My suggestion is to redesign the bridge to better suit multiple routes and spaces designed to house combat for lower lines of sight(I'm thinking along the lines of Halo 3's Narrows). I get the get the feeling that wide open spaces were the unintended result of overestimating how much a party of sixteen needs without feeling cramped. The bases and terrain geometry could benefit from some downsizing and more interesting variety. The bases themselves feel needlessly mazelike. That being said, i'm incredibly excited to see the map improve over time.

Eagle Square: I really like how deceptively small this map feels initially. The bridge connecting both bases above provides a quick and easy way to encounter the opposing team while on foot, and the tunnel below creates a great space for vehicle encounters. What I like is that the two area don't feel exclusive to one another; a player can just as easily hold their own in the tunnels without being totally overwhelmed by vehicles(I get the feeling from other reviews that this wasn't the case in older iterations). This combination provides a wealth of routes for flag running.

MBCM: I feel like this map could benefit with some pruning. Luckily this issue doesn't appear to infringe on gameplay to heavily, as these mostly unused areas seemed to exist outside the heat of most enemy encounters. Bases could also benefit with some downsizing, or at least a few more objects to counter the negative space. As of now it's a little easy for teams to lockdown their position in either bases.

The Cradle: I'd be lying if I said the map wasn't one of the most entertaining of the bunch. The architecture here is top notch and the variation in terrain is great. The scripted gondolas however, are what stole the show for me. There's something incredibly fun about holding strongholds on moving platforms. I feel like this focus on fun is the map's best quality. That being said, the map at the moment feels hardly optimized for a competitive playing field. The abundance of heavy vehicles makes tackling the surface on-foot incredibly tough. I'd like to see this map in action with some of the heavy vehicles removed from play.

Gallows: This map could benefit from a removal of the banshees, or at least something more effective to counter them on both sides. I also found driving the rockethog around a bit to overpowering(when the banshees weren't looking), especially when realizing that players respawn out in the open. The geometry feels a bit too flat and simplistic. Too often you're forced to take part in awkward firing exchanges across the map because there's nothing to break lines of sight. Overall i'd suggest downsizing the bases and working towards making the terrain geometry more varied.

 

[CommanderColson]

Ferrous by CommanderColson: asymmetrical junkyard map (Strongholds)
I thought this map was made by GOD cause my love for it was RELIGIOUS

Fracture by Squally DaBeanz: Symmetrical snowy map with bridges, a tunnel, and Mantises (CTF)
I personally missed the Armory, as it was a location I always find myself in with ever game I played. That being said, I understand the cut, however the redesign you showed me last night... I was not a fan of. I'd say try and find a middle ground, for I do not believe the center structure needs as much redesign as you're putting into it. That said, I also believe in Santa.

Kizingo by alex quit: Asymmetrical nighttime urban map (Strongholds)
I have to admit, I think I liked the older version of this map better as far as the far corner went on the opposite side of the vehicle tunnel... the side that was more low ground, as I thought there were more interesting sight lines (granted way too big). I think aesthetically the map has a bit of a way to go. I would say more, but I actually do not remember my game on here that night clearly enough to provide full game play feed back.

Artemis by The Fated Fire & The Psycho Duck: Symmetrical snowy Forerunner map (CTF)
Very solid map obviously, however as a scrub, it can be quite brutal to play. The one thing I will say is that, despite popular feedback against it, I actually liked when the flags were offset to the sides of the roof. New additions to the geometry are nice and make the map feel 'fuller'. At this point I'm nit picking and allowing my artistic eye to get in the way, but I'd be interested to see the forerunner structure at top mid be made taller just to further emphasis the top of the map and possible provide even more orientation- orientation wasn't a problem, I just feel like a taller middle structure that won't affect anything but aesthetics may enhance it.

Hangout by MartianMallCop: Asymmetrical toon-town map with a banshee (Strongholds)
Wasn't there, got kicked for being too good.

Badger Cliffs by CDX34: Symmetrical canyon map with a large bridge (CTF)
Wasn't there, got kicked for being too good.
Eagle Square by SHIFTY time: Inversely symmetrical urban map with a highway overpass (CTF)
Ah Eagle Square, the map that is sorely missing a massive eagle statue over top mid. This map has always had me split... I like it... and I don't. The urban theme is cool, as are the bottom strongholds, the under bridge, and top mid... but the pathways getting there can feel congested and a bit confusing, while the bases at times seem like tall jut ups in the geometry. I think this map is held back by the fact it's a large wrecktangle, and while I wouldn't say "ohh ho ho ho redesign" I do think the map has a lot of potential that could be met by fleshing out certain areas and rethinking some of the pathways. IDK, perhaps this map just isn't my cup of tea. The new additions to under bridge were perf, as Duck said.

MBCM by RipShaDe 41: Symmetrical urban map with a central skyscraper (CTF)
This map looks like it just had thanksgiving, unbuckled it's belt, and let its tubby wubby fat noise rain side to side. I say that endearingly however, as I do like the map, but I think it's a little too 'loose'. Down scaling, I feel would go a long way, especially with the big middle building. I disagree with the recommendation of removing the subway, as I found myself traversing through it quite a bit, but perhaps try and streamline it. And also give the train the Terminal treatment. Tighten it up, I think it has the potential to be the best Battle of Noctu- I mean, one of the best BTB maps in the group. Also, I don't blame you for the lack of aesthetics and most notably grey sky, all I ask is... why

The Cradle by HalfDemonANBU: Large symmetrical map with moving gondolas (Strongholds)
I didn't like it. Couldn't tell where I was suppose to go, felt as if there were no vehicle paths, and the gondola's themselves were too difficult to get onto. It took me half the game just to figure out how to get to where the Banshee spawned. The concept I REALLY like, but I think the map itself was a misfire. I'd say coming up with a new design that focuses primarily on the Gondola moment would be a smart way to go about it, rather than having them just floating above at the top of the map. You got a really special concept here, don't be afraid to experiment with different designs and layouts. For instance, you know how some maps have entire path ways designated to bring the player back to the center atrium? Think of your gondola's as center atrium's, and move the bases forwards and on top of them so that when the Gondola enters blue base, it ENTER's blue base, giving everyone a very obvious and fair chance of getting on board.

Gallows by BlazeDillon: Inversely symmetrical map with banshees (Slayer)
Blaze, I know you're not big on BTB, but you're not suppose to let it show. DOWNSCALE, and try to incorporate the vehicle routs in ways that infantry will find more interaction with them. Also, I'm not a huge fan of being sniped by a DMR from the other side of the map. Some segmentation could go a long way. Love ya buddy, but I'm not going to lie to you, this design you've had since H2A is not exactly the best, but I could see it working if you went forward now with a mindset to re imagine what you already have. Try to avoid large flat spaces, and tighten everything up. The point of a BTB map is to not be big, the point of a BTB map is to support a bigger amount of players, and you can do that through a variation of things, such as segmentation, pathing, and condensity, all of which your map has... but not really. I feel like I sound like I sound like an ass, but I just want this map to succeed. Feel free to bring me in anytime if you'd like any more direct feedback.

 

[CDX34]

It seems the general opinion of Badger Cliffs, is I had a good idea, but I messed it up big time. I think I like CommanderColson's review best. In all seriousness though, I am taking all advice given seriously.
On that note I would like to ask what people thought about the "windows" within the structures, if anyone really noticed them, as I'd like to use them again if they're not a terrible idea.

 

[Psychoduck]

It seems the general opinion of Badger Cliffs, is I had a good idea, but I messed it up big time. I think I like CommanderColson's review best. In all seriousness though, I am taking all advice given seriously.
On that note I would like to ask what people thought about the "windows" within the structures, if anyone really noticed them, as I'd like to use them again if they're not a terrible idea.

The windows themselves are cool; just make sure you're not exclusively relying on walls to segment the map. If you're working off of a space that isn't entirely flat, that will help as well. But, walls are very two-dimensional and singular in purpose and so should be used somewhat sparingly. Multi-purpose geometry which provides indirect cover and also creates movement options is preferable in many cases.

 

[Squally DaBeanz]

are more people going to leave feedback, i mean we had 16 ppl lol

I'll get mine in later today. I got classes and some homework to do, then I'll be able to hop into forge and go in depth with some of the maps.

 

[Squally DaBeanz]

Ferrous
This map is coming along great. I say it's nearly complete, only needing the last bit of art. After that, it's just a matter of polishing some smaller details to fine tune the gameplay. My biggest complaint is still the position of the Blue Trench stronghold relative to the cave leading to it, as this makes it too easy to camp the stronghold without being contested much. Perhaps adding a secondary route to the upper level like Duck said will be worth looking into, and I already have a good idea of what could be done. As we were discussing, I am more than happy to keep helping you polish weapon placement and spawning. Besides those small things, I love the map and what it's become.

Fracture
I'm looking into several options to alleviate the issues flag runs are posing right now. It seems I over corrected with the new flag placement and accompanying changes to the bases, as flag runs and gameplay is now predominantly on the bridge side. I know what I want to do for the bases, but the middle structure, the landing pad, the under-bridge baskets, and all the routes between these are being reevaluated as I write this. I've started working on some redesigns to the middle structure, and have plans for other areas of the map as well (like the armory). Stay tuned to the WAYWO chat for updates. And Duck, I still need to solicit your time to look at the current changes

Kizingo
I was happy to see some of the changes made to the dead end areas and the height/accessibility of Blue Tower. My only major complaints with the geometry now are the ledge above the Ghost tunnel looking over plaza, and how steep some of the roads are. The roads are a minor complaint, but still worth looking into, as making the vehicle routes smoother will encourage players to use the vehicles a little more on what I feel is an infantry heavy map at the moment. Aside from geometry, the biggest things to look at are objectives and spawning. I was consistently spawning in one area on the edge of the map (where you have the gold team spawns) that was inherently undesirable, and that lead to some really bad spawn trapping. This problem was compounded by the way the Strongholds are currently set up. It's too easy to control the Plaza stronghold right now, as there are too many intersecting sightlines through it. Eastgate is a very undesirable location that offered no tactical advantage and was simply a death trap. Loadzone was very awkward to fight over, as the only viable way to approach it was to expose yourself on a long open sightline and hope you don't get shot at. I feel that relocating all the strongholds would at least be worth looking into. Maybe adding some additional routes from the middle of the map into the upper levels of either side will allow you to play with some new stronghold locations and the movement required to approach them.

Artemis
Not a whole lot else I could say at this point. This map is probably the most polished and sweat inducing of the bunch at the moment, and I love it. Some people may say it's too punishing at times, but I think a lot of that has had to do with the types of people we've been playing with and the constant team imbalances that plague our lobbies. Whether it's two pro teams or a bunch of matchmaking randoms, I think everyone can find something on this map enjoyable. I'm still a little undecided on the mohawks on top of the bridge. Perhaps adding a small cubby on either side of the lift or in the spire itself will achieve a similar effect without cluttering the vehicle path. I'm also not sure about the Camo on the map. Camo is extremely good in this game, and having one on a map this small may prove problematic when used for base infiltration or flag runs. Just something to consider. Those are my only small complaints. Keep up the great work!

Hangout
This map still bothers me for some reason. Every game on it has been less and less enjoyable despite the obvious improvements, and it has just gotten stale to me. Just something to consider. Anyway, the back stairwell leading to Cafe is a welcome addition, and feels more structurally integrated than anything else on the map. This is the sort of thing I was picturing when I talked to you about making each area feel more like an actual building with fleshed out interiors instead of a series of catwalks and cover. if you can make more of the map feel like this stairwell, you'll be well on your way to significantly increasing its lifespan. A lot of the feedback from last week still stands, and some new issues have been brought up. As we discussed, vehicle and stronghold placement need to be seriously readjusted. The bottom levels of the map still play no part in the grand scheme of flow and gameplay, and many areas still feel too open and awkward to travel through (again, probably due to the lack of actual structure). It seems to me that this map still has a long way to go until it reaches a point where it doesn't get repetitive and stale so quickly.

"Massive Wall Of Text Part 2" coming shortly...

 

[Squally DaBeanz]

Badger Cliffs
I'm sure you already understand what the issues are with this map after hearing complaints in the lobby itself and reading the feedback here. I'm going to throw my two cents in anyway. The map is definitely WAY too big, flat, and open. Now, don't be confused about the meaning of "flat" like some people do. yes, there are technically changes in height, but everything PLAYS on the same vertical level. You never have to move your reticule up or down in any significant way. This flatness becomes an even bigger problem when a majority of the sightlines are out of red reticule range. I felt like I needed a sniper to be effective in any given area of the map. Halo has always been designed around three main combat pillars: guns, grenades, and melee. The engagement distances currently on the map only leave room for gunplay, and nothing else. On top of those combat pillars, lies the other half of Halo's main gameplay design: movement. Moving on this map is a nightmare, as there is no substantial cover anywhere, and you are constantly being funneled through long paths with no other options around you. Good maps will always allow smart players to move freely throughout without feeling hindered in their movement. They will also allow player creativity, offering geometry that can be used in more than one way. Players should be able to create some paths of their own using the layout of the map, either by jumping over some areas, climbing on top of something to get a better sightline, or jumping gaps meant to keep players apart. As it stands right now, players can only get funneled through long linear paths where all they have to do is keep their feet on the ground and look left and right for long periods of time without finding anyone, occasionally getting wrecked by a Banshee.

Eagle Square
First thing's first, I LOVE the new bottom of the map. It feels so much better to move through and creates more enjoyable engagements. However, it seems other areas of the map didn't get as much love this time around. The back corners adjacent to each base still feel like dead ends, and the roads underneath them still feel like long routes lacking and vertical movement options for infantry. Perhaps you could shift the upper road over to where the gap currently is, and then use the extra space on the side to create a ramp that infantry could use to reach the upper level and approach the base from a new angle. The areas directly next to the bases also feel very awkward and claustrophobic right now. The long stairwell/tunnel system is tedious to travel through, and the lift and surrounding pillars feel poorly placed. This whole area needs to be cleaned up and streamlined a bit. The idea is there, it just needs some tweaking. Perhaps removing the wall separating the hallway and the ramp will allow players to more easily understand the space. Since this would make the ramp exit where the lift currently is, this could allow you to relocate the lift as well, maybe making it more directly connected to the base structure itself. Speaking of the bases, the tops feel way too easy to camp right now. This is mainly due to an overabundance of cover and a lack of hard routes leading to them. Just something to consider. I really hope this map gets the polish it needs, as it certainly deserves the time and attention required to make it as great as it can be.

NBCM
This was an interesting one. There wasn't anything that stood out as completely terrible or broken, but it felt like every area of the map could be improved. Whether it be scale, geometry changes, or a combination of both (I like the idea of both), something needs to change. I still think the roads and other similar flat areas should be smaller than they currently are, as this leads to players sprinting through a wide open surface hoping to not get shot instead of actually participating in interesting combat as they move. The other major area of concern I had was the middle "pavilion" type area. This area feels very separated from the rest of the map, yet played very open within itself. Perhaps you could make it feel more incorporated with the sightlines of the rest of the map by opening up the outer walls a bit while adding more substantial cover inside to make it play more interestingly. As it stand right now, anyone inside of it is putting themselves at a disadvantage since there are practically no lines of sight out, but many lines of sight in if someone climbs on top of the wall, leading to awkward and frantic combat. The subway is the last thing to discuss, and it seems its the most controversial. I can see both sides. It is an interesting space in theory, though it didn't get to see much use. I think this may be a matter of readability. The tunnels by each base aren't exactly the most noticeable things in the world, and don't draw players in either since they don't offer much of an advantage over any areas. Perhaps widening/opening up these tunnels will make them more noticeable, and therefore the stairs leading into the subway will be noticed more as well. The back entrance from the tower is equally hard to notice, as you can only access it via a flank behind the building that is already hard to notice. I think changing the geometry of the back half of the tower to allow the flank to be closer to the middle of the map and face the bases at an angle will help this. The main front entrance could use some work too, as it's currently too hard to get out of and too easy to get shot at, making players not want to go down there. Some minor changes to allow faster escapes would be welcome. The last things that definitely need work are the spawns and flag placement. Right now, the flags are on one side of the map, making that the only side that sees any gameplay. Moving the flags closer to the middle bridge will make the tower side of the map a viable choice for base pushes and flag pulls alike. As for spawns... I'd just say redo them. A lot of the spawns felt awkward, either due to positioning or orientation. There also should be any spawns directly in the middle of the map, especially for CTF.

The Cradle
This map definitely stood out in the group. The moving gondolas are cool, but I feel that having a stronghold on one is too easy to defend, basically giving one team free points if they have another point captured. One reason it's so hard to contest is how long it takes to move from one side of the map to the other. Granted the scaling is definitely an improvement over the Warzone scaled version I saw before, but it's still not quite there. Getting closer though. It just needs to be a bit smaller and simpler both laterally and vertically. Moving up and down was arguably more frustrating than moving from one side to the other. There's just too much height in some areas without enough apparent ways up. The middle tower and the rock arch in front of it are prime examples. The tower only has one hard route up to the top from each side, and they're very close to the middle. This means a player has to rely on man cannons to get up there from anywhere else. The rock arch is even worse in this regard. Less verticality will help players read the map better, and be able to engage players above them more easily. Aside from the scaling, the overall shape of the map and the routes in it seem solid at this point, but are limited due to vehicle dominance. As other have said, there are just too many vehicles on the map, especially heavy vehicles (Banshee, Mantis, Wraith, etc). Thinking about which vehicles will work well with the map and its design goals, and then focusing on making just those work will do wonders for your map and make it play much more smoothly. The only other thing I would recommend is at least playing with the idea Commander Colson brought up about having a single gondola that actually docks inside the bases for a time instead of floating next to them could be very interesting and lead to some great encounters.

Gallows
When I heard you were attempting a BTB map again, I was afraid it was going to be a remake of your H2A one, and it seems my fears were realized. This map was far too large, had too many wide open sightlines, and very little in the way of meaningful verticality. The Banshees completely dominated any area of the map not inside or immediately next to the two main structures and when they were out of the picture, the Warthogs filled that role instead. The outer edges of the map simply didn't cater to any sort of infantry gameplay whatsoever, forcing all infantry to cower inside the large boxy buildings. These buildings offered little in the way of interesting gameplay. The rooms were overscaled and played very one-dimensionally. The exteriors of the buildings were just as poorly designed being the only clear power positions yet having few counters and limited routes up. To top everything off, the forging was very sloppy, and many players would often get stuck on random pieces of geometry sticking through floors and walls. I think you need to seriously consider redesigning the entire map to better incorporate vehicles and infantry in the same spaces, and have more intuitive geometry with clear paths, power positions, and counter positions. Right now, each area of the map stands on its own and has very little depth within itself and adds very little to to other areas of the map.

 

[RipShaDe 41]

NBCM
This was an interesting one. There wasn't anything that stood out as completely terrible or broken, but it felt like every area of the map could be improved. Whether it be scale, geometry changes, or a combination of both (I like the idea of both), something needs to change. I still think the roads and other similar flat areas should be smaller than they currently are, as this leads to players sprinting through a wide open surface hoping to not get shot instead of actually participating in interesting combat as they move. The other major area of concern I had was the middle "pavilion" type area. This area feels very separated from the rest of the map, yet played very open within itself. Perhaps you could make it feel more incorporated with the sightlines of the rest of the map by opening up the outer walls a bit while adding more substantial cover inside to make it play more interestingly. As it stand right now, anyone inside of it is putting themselves at a disadvantage since there are practically no lines of sight out, but many lines of sight in if someone climbs on top of the wall, leading to awkward and frantic combat. The subway is the last thing to discuss, and it seems its the most controversial. I can see both sides. It is an interesting space in theory, though it didn't get to see much use. I think this may be a matter of readability. The tunnels by each base aren't exactly the most noticeable things in the world, and don't draw players in either since they don't offer much of an advantage over any areas. Perhaps widening/opening up these tunnels will make them more noticeable, and therefore the stairs leading into the subway will be noticed more as well. The back entrance from the tower is equally hard to notice, as you can only access it via a flank behind the building that is already hard to notice. I think changing the geometry of the back half of the tower to allow the flank to be closer to the middle of the map and face the bases at an angle will help this. The main front entrance could use some work too, as it's currently too hard to get out of and too easy to get shot at, making players not want to go down there. Some minor changes to allow faster escapes would be welcome. The last things that definitely need work are the spawns and flag placement. Right now, the flags are on one side of the map, making that the only side that sees any gameplay. Moving the flags closer to the middle bridge will make the tower side of the map a viable choice for base pushes and flag pulls alike. As for spawns... I'd just say redo them. A lot of the spawns felt awkward, either due to positioning or orientation. There also should be any spawns directly in the middle of the map, especially for CTF.

Thanks for the feedback. The spawns were atrocious but its because of some minor issues that i believe are now fixed. I had some issue with ffa spawns on my map which i removed entirely. Also had majority of the spawn fix help from shifty. I have already brought the bases closer towards the middle and also made the roads smaller. I'm also going to tune some stuff based on your feedback. I do agree that he route down to the subway do need to be easily visible so more players would u use that route. Positioning of the flag can also be looked at. Also both playtest didnt go well based on spawning alone so im hoping with fixed spawns and the map feeling tighter that it will overall play better. Thank you very much for the feedback and i will try my hardest to fix things for the next playtest.

 

[alex quit]

Sorry for disappearing Monday night, Comcast took a crap on me
Everyone has given some great in-depth feedback, I’ll just toss out some food for thought.

FERROUS
This still remains one of my personal favorites of our rotation. You’ve layout all of the “junk” in a purposeful way, it’s clear that thought was put behind the placement seemingly random objects. Everyone seemed to really like the new splash of color. The changes made based on the feedback from the previous play-test seems to have ironed out any kinks in the layout.

FRACTURE
My general experience with this map hasn’t been the greatest, I usually get wrecked for whatever reason. Maybe it has been an overall lack of team-play on our part? In any case I still have not gotten comfortable with the map yet. Which strikes me as odd because the layout of the map is fairly simple and each area has clear advantages/disadvantages.
The CTF game I was present for was action packed, and it seemed most of the firefights were taking place on the side of the map with the bridges. I have mixed feelings about the turrets, their platforms felt geometrically awkward, however the turrets themselves proved to be very effective once they were detached; which was cool because turrets aren’t usually utilized in most maps that include them.
I was not present for the other version without the Armory passage, but I think focusing on ways to give the flag carrier multiple viable flag routes will spread out the focus of the map and make for more varied and interesting games.

ARTEMIS
We drowned in Red team’s sweat this game hah
It’s clear that this map promotes and rewards coordinated team play. I am also wondering if the snipers get too comfy atop their bases.
I wonder how binary rifles would play? They would still allow for cross map kills, and clutch flag stops, but slow down the rapid succession of murder that can occur with the sniper. And it is a fore-runner themed map after all ;p

HANGOUT
I like the new route up to cafe from the back, though you might have to make it more prominent because it seemed underutilized.
It was mentioned that entirely new stronghold placement might improve the experience. While I think that the current strongholds setup works, I would welcome new placements to see how it mixes things up.

BADGER CLIFFS
I do like the thin supports running across the canyon as they were a fun alternative way to cross to the other side. Other than that I’d agree with everyone the feedback everyone else has given.
I think that in general this map lacks a purpose or overall theme. What is it that you want to accomplish with the map? How can you build it in a way that promotes the gameplay you want while still maintaining balance?

EAGLE SQUARE
Still dig this map’s overall aesthetics and I think the layout is solid. Overall there seems to be little interaction between the vehicle routes and infantry as they are clearly segregated. Maybe finding a way to bring them together more might make things more interesting. - A thought, maybe forcing the vehicle routes through bottom mid would be cool. This way the infantry has more time to react and engage the vehicles.
I was not present for the second version, so I cant comment on that one.

MBCM
I I found structures to be pretty interesting. Unfortunately the spawns were not ideal for CTF as you know so we couldn’t gage how well CTF played particularly well. The general consensus seemed to be that scaling the map down would help. I think this map has great potential, I think you’ve got the main structures figured out, I think that your main challenge is going to be figuring out how to connect them in a way that makes sense. I’d say that moving from one structure to another should be at-least as interesting and fun as the structures themselves.

THE CRADLE
I was quite envious of this Map’s aesthetics, it looked ripped strait out of campaign, great stuff.
Those gondolas are a really cool concept and no doubt the highlight of the map. However they felt like an afterthought. There was very little interaction between the players on the gondolas and the space below them. As someone who generally avoids heavy vehicles altogether I never once went past the half-way point of my side of the map, except briefly while on the gondola.
Overall I think you’ll either need to rethink the majority of the map and focus on making the gondolas integrate with it better. Or, save the save the gondolas for another map and focus on the rest of the map as it is.

GALLOWS
This was my first time playing his map. As a whole the map felt rather un-interesting, very simple geometry and little engagement variation. I was almost always firing at someone that was on the same plane as I was. I found one route to the other side of the map and pretty much stuck to that route the entire game. Die, run for my comfort zone and slay dudes across the map, - die, repeat. I don’t mind the simplicity of the map, but I think you’ll need to find a way to mix things up.

_____________________________

KIZINGO
As always, thanks to all for the feedback!
I’ve got a couple of new versions to test out, V4 moves load-zone up the road a bit and is now situated as under bridge, underneath a new over-pass that allows players to reach cinema from the street - Plaza has seen some changes, I took out the tree, as it was a bit awkward. I added some new cover/towers to either side that should make plaza easier to take. I’m hoping that Eastgate has value in the fact that it is hard to take yet easier to defend. V4.2 experiments with an entirely different strongholds setup.

I look forward to this coming Monday!