Halo Is the entire Halo series as we know it becoming old and out of date?

SOLIDSNAKEee

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I am not sure you can define the Halo 3 community as casual when they were foaming at the mouth once Reach and Halo 4 came out.... just saying.

Also I was only remarking on an observation that vocal forum users constantly cry out for what amounts to nothing more than a carbon copy of Halo 3 as a new game.


Halo 3 was a casual experience for many, though being fair I can only speak for myself. Regardless of the fair and mostly balanced MM ( which anyone will tell you is what the want again, plus the fact people will say they want it like/similar to H3's ) the campaign had an amazing story line was well as several out of the way collectibles which I personally needed the assistance of friends or fellow community members to find.
Continuing on the customs were by far the best out of any of the games.

Reach had a very imbalanced online and I can speak for this in Invasion alone, skill matching was also broken. Halo 4 was enjoyable for me though I've slowly stopped playing it more and more, with H3 this was never a problem as I'd always want to go on it. I don't want another Halo 3 but I do want the aspects that made that game to return to, well, return.

Also those members speak for themselves and not the majority though I respect your views on the matter.
 
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Invasion was the most complex and most asymmetric team oriented game ever.

Unbalanced is the word to describe dominion which had the sharpest hysteresis of sliding into lopsided game play of any fully symmetrical game.
 

VaultingFrog

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Also those members speak for themselves and not the majority though I respect your views on the matter.

I wont speak about the balance of any of those games as my experiences were way different than most (at least I think they are). Suffice to say that I did not enjoy either of them.

That being said the suggestions (or in a lot of cases demands) from those forum members (here and else where) end up creating a virtual carbon copy of Halo 3 with pretty new graphics. That's where it generally ends up leading. True there are suggestions out there which provide advancement while still using H3 and Reach ideas but most of the crap written thusly:

"Throw Halo 4's stuff out the window and just give us Halo 3."

Not very productive if you ask me.

343 has only expanded on ideas from Halo 3 and Reach to be honest. Since Halo CE came out the games have gotten far more complex in its customization. Halo 3 brought about different armor pieces to use. Players have been able to change starting loadouts for everybody for quite some time now. 343 only expanded on that to allow individual players to control what they start with in certain game types. Gear was introduced in Halo 3 in a manor that made sense. In Reach they took that idea and tweeked it for more versatile characters. Did the evolution make sense from a story standpoint? No it didn't, but then the game Reach itself made no sense from a story standpoint. In any case that idea was further expanded upon in Halo 4 which would make sense. Why wouldn't a military create armor abilities as standard issue equipment when they proved themselves already?

Again they allowed the players additional customization. That is not a bad thing. Sure Forge needed some help (and perhaps still does) and the matchmaking system needs an overhaul. Every game will have its issues, yet fans of the Halo series (at least vocal forum users) bitched about everything because it was so different than Halo 3. More evolved and they just don't like it. To them, personal interpretation here, Halo 3 was the pinnacle of gaming and every game hence forth should be that game because nothing could be better. That is what I get from their posts, which to me is utter stupidity.

In any case I have written enough. I just want to end with the quote of your post I made.

Those forum members tend to think they can speak for the community. Time and again I see it. There are countless examples of such "entitlement" spread throughout the internet that I couldn't begin to post them all here. It is part of being human, thinking we as an individual know what is best for everybody else. People do it all the time in smaller, less noticeable ways but we do it. I do it for crying out loud. Doesn't make it right.
 
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SOLIDSNAKEee

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You see again you're assuming that this selected group of people speak for the community and yes we all do it from time to time, though it doesn't make it so.

Certain members of the community want a well balanced game that improves on what H3 delivered, a well rounded and yet fun experience.The Halo games since then have either been unbalanced or have had certain aspects which are a serious game breaking factor ( DMR prior to the update anyone? ). Yes the games have evolved but only at the cost of balancing, the fun received from playing the game and certain story elements. That is why these people, these community members looking a "Carbon copy of Halo 3" want another game that is Halo 3 or in the least what it delivered.

The problem that has happened to Halo over the past few years is the fact that CoD has taken away most of the community or gained the would be Haloers. Companies have since tried to make it feel a little more like CoD in an attempt to regain lost community members and we both know thats the truth.

Without even getting started on Reach's story plot holes I'd just like to say about AA's.The fact we were given so much customization, it made it harder for the games to be balanced and as such the games/future titles like Reach/Halo 4 become so unbalanced that they were unable to fully re-balance the games.

I suppose we can agree to disagree here, we both dislike that a portion of the community is looking a carbon copy of H3 and we both wish to see an evolved and more balanced future Halo. Though this will only happen if the other community members like ourselves voice our opinion in a mature fashion instead of telling 343i what they done wrong we could atleast try tell them what the could do for a future title.
 

ShockBolt21

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Here's what I think. Yes, Halo 3 is the most balanced. But that's only because they just throw everybody into the arena with a battle rifle and nothing else. It's a pretty simple concept, but I don't think it's the most fun. The reason I like Halo 4 matchmaking the most is because the high amount of customizability allows me to play the game how I want to- there are other options as opposed to just rushing into battle, BRs blazing.

I think that halo fans worry too much about a game's balance, and there being no luck whatsoever and everything is all about skill. Other video games aren't like this, and real life isn't like this either. It doesn't need to be perfectly balanced. What's more important is that it's a fun game to play. My problem is that Halo 3 was too flat and homogeneous if you understand what I mean- the fact that you have no choice of weapons or upgrades/ability made it quite boring and repetitive for me. Balanced? Sure. Fun? Nope.
 

SOLIDSNAKEee

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Here's what I think. Yes, Halo 3 is the most balanced. But that's only because they just throw everybody into the arena with a battle rifle and nothing else. It's a pretty simple concept, but I don't think it's the most fun. The reason I like Halo 4 matchmaking the most is because the high amount of customizability allows me to play the game how I want to- there are other options as opposed to just rushing into battle, BRs blazing.

I think that halo fans worry too much about a game's balance, and there being no luck whatsoever and everything is all about skill. Other video games aren't like this, and real life isn't like this either. It doesn't need to be perfectly balanced. What's more important is that it's a fun game to play. My problem is that Halo 3 was too flat and homogeneous if you understand what I mean- the fact that you have no choice of weapons or upgrades/ability made it quite boring and repetitive for me. Balanced? Sure. Fun? Nope.

You've stated everything thats wrong with the current games, aside from being fun.

Yes H3 had BR starts as it put everyone on an even playing field and certain aspects of luck such as surviving a splatter made you feel god like but saying that because its skilled based and needing to learn maps ( the learning curve ) ruined the game is just stupid.Also if a game isn't balanced then why the hell would you play it? I mean seriously I'm not going to run into guys getting random ordnance drops getting Incin cannons and rocket launchers, it needs to be balanced to be able to be played casually or competitively. If you want lulz and randomness, join some customs as they're usually awesome sauce.
 

ShockBolt21

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Customs aren't balanced and they're still fun. Battlefield, call of duty, and most other series aren't perfectly symmetrical and balanced but they're still perfectly good video games. I'm not saying that if a game is balanced then it's not fun, but if I have to give up everything else to make it 100% homogeneous, then it's certainly not worth it. I don't find it fun to run around with nothing but a battle rifle every single game, using the same tactics over and over because that's all it allows me to do. I'm not saying that it's no fun because it's balanced- I'm saying that it's balanced, but still not fun- not necessarily as a result.
 

SOLIDSNAKEee

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Customs aren't balanced and they're still fun. Battlefield, call of duty, and most other series aren't perfectly symmetrical and balanced but they're still perfectly good video games. I'm not saying that if a game is balanced then it's not fun, but if I have to give up everything else to make it 100% homogeneous, then it's certainly not worth it. I don't find it fun to run around with nothing but a battle rifle every single game, using the same tactics over and over because that's all it allows me to do. I'm not saying that it's no fun because it's balanced- I'm saying that it's balanced, but still not fun- not necessarily as a result.

You see all I'm seeing is a similar argument which I've already replied to. Those games are not Halo and they do have a rock, scissors, paper deal to them though for BF its more noticeable ( air>armour, armour> infantry, infantry>air ). Again, this is Halo. These games need to be balanced because if they were then this topic would not have been created. You've got me at a completely skilled based game but with Halo there was still some what of a chance to kill other players who knew weapon/vehicle spawn locations but with Halo 4 we have random weapon drops. Now this has now been limited to certain playlist but the damage has been done.

The way I'm seeing this if you want games life CoD or BF, then play those games.This is Halo and it does need some form of what makes Halo Halo.It needs some form of balance while having most of the random factors removed. Back in H3 we had the random playlists every weekend, it was bloody fantastic. If we had something similar to that in a future title then this debate/argument would be invalid.
 

ShockBolt21

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The way I'm seeing this if you want games life CoD or BF, then play those games.
Not true. I was simply trying to show that there exist decent games that aren't all about balance (Halo is really the only game that is like this, and it does not need to be in my opinion). This was in response to your earlier statement "if a game isn't balanced then why the hell would you play it?"

But anyway, just know that I don't care as much about perfect balance as you do, and I like to have alternative ways to play the game more intelligently to get a fair, well earned edge on players that may be more skilled than me.
 

SOLIDSNAKEee

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Not true. I was simply trying to show that there exist decent games that aren't all about balance (Halo is really the only game that is like this, and it does not need to be in my opinion). This was in response to your earlier statement "if a game isn't balanced then why the hell would you play it?"

But anyway, just know that I don't care as much about perfect balance as you do, and I like to have alternative ways to play the game more intelligently to get a fair, well earned edge on players that may be more skilled than me.

Oh so now you're implying that I'm either stupid or lack intelligence? Oh this guy.

Games need a certain amount of balance to my sure person X who has been playing the game for god knows how long, can still be killed by person Y whom has only being playing the game for a few hours. The skill gap determines which party wins regardless of rank. So, in turn, this proves that most games have some form of balance... then there's CoD which is just complete luck of the draw.

I respect your opinion on believing that not all games require balance and then I pity you for thinking that Halo does not require this. It has made past games work wonders and it is what the majority of the community wants. I know that personally I don't want a game that tries to copy what CoD has seemingly done flawlessly for the past few years, I want a game where I want to be the best and where there is little random factors that can block the skill for certain playlists as well as some random/casual playlists that allow for those "WTF" or "LOL" moments that you will only find in Halo.

But hey, I'm just a guy that lacks intelligence.
 

Skyward Shoe

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First off, I don't think Shockbolt was intending to insult you Snake. What he was saying was that he valued being able to outsmart an opponent over just outshooting them, not that you were unintelligent.

This however brought me to a point that I think needs to be made: Balance is not simply making sure the better shot wins. Balance implies that all parts of the game are fair between the players, so that one player or team cannot win in a way that is not based on being more skilled. There are many types of skill however: Skill at lining up shots with a variety of weapons, skill at landing grenades precisely, skill at predicting where players will go, skill at acquiring risky power weapons or power ups, dextrous skill at moving your avatar around the map efficiently/ making difficult jumps, and probably a few other things I'm missing. A well balanced game makes sure that the player who is better in these categories overall will win so long as they don't slip up, leaving some room for variation because, lets face it, even the best player can have a bad game. Most of the best players are such great shots than unless one has a bad day they assume that their opponents will land almost all of their shots. Because of this, highly competitive players have to be good in the other areas in order to have a chance, and so people specialize. Some people are better with a diverse range of weapons, others are better at predicting player movement, and others are better at moving around the map. This was demonstrated on the last game of the 1 v 1 Tourney hosted over the past few months. Both players hit pretty consistently, so it came down to their other skill to decide the winner.

I could probably keep going on this and write a massive text wall, but no one really likes those. The point is, skill encompasses playing smart, not just how well you can shoot, and balance is making sure that the player with the better overall demonstration of skills of all types is the winner. However, it isn't playing smart to use a system that breaks one of these skills, it's abusing a broken system. s an example, personal ordnance removes the need to have skill at controlling a maps weapons, a skill that separates the average player from the more competitive player. Suddenly, the player who may not be as good a shot but who was very good at controlling power weapon drops has had everything he has trained for taken away. This player was playing smart to set up situations in which he/she could have a better chance of getting these weapons, but now the player with the better shot gets weapons just for being a better shot. Personal ordnance actually removes the need to master that skill in favor of just shooting. This is just one example of course, but it serves to show one way that Halo 4 removed a focus on well rounded skill in favor of simple shootem-up skill.

On a final note, fun is entirely subjective. Some people just want to shoot and run around and can have a great time playing almost anything. Others however want to test their personal set of skills they have honed over years against others. And many more people fall somewhere in between or may like to play both ways at different times. It is the great failing of Halo 4 to not offer options for all types of players, in both matchmaking and custom game options.
 

ShockBolt21

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I agree that personal and random ordinance should not be in the game, but I don't think that they alone destroy the balance all together. There will be the occasional frustrating moment where your opponent will pop out of a corner and shoot you with a weapon that randomly fell out of the sky for him, but it doesn't just suddenly throw the entire game and all skill requirements out the window at that moment. It creates a momentary disadvantage that you can recover from (you'll have the same opportunity once your drop is ready). Sure it may affect skill prerequisite in some areas, but not enough to make all skill insignificant. It can be lived with.
It is the great failing of Halo 4 to not offer options for all types of players, in both matchmaking and custom game options.
H4 has pro and legendary playlist for the competitive players, and infinity playlists for those who enjoy that. It provides players with greater ability to customize their player, catering to a wider variety of tactics. Also, I'll never agree with you guys on what you claim about H4 custom games.
he valued being able to outsmart an opponent over just outshooting them
Well said.
Haha, why do you even bother?

Anyway, one of my main points through my entire argument is that Halo 4 is balanced. Maybe not as balanced as Halo 3, but still balanced enough. It's got its flaws, but those can be lived with until the next title.
 

SOLIDSNAKEee

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Flying Shoe ILR ^^^
Totally agree with that, I just have a problem with wording myself sometimes.

ShockBolt21
Apologies for assuming you were trying to insult me as I'm sure you understand its quite difficult to judge if a person is being passive or aggressive while using text.
Also I can't change your mind, you've made that point very clear but the same also goes for me. If you enjoy Halo 4, then by all means continue to play it. I just wish that certain aspects of previous Halo titles made a return on the developers part and not the communities/modding communities part. I've always been very supportive of 343 and I hope they continue to strive towards the perfect Halo title but for now, in my eyes atleast, Halo 4 is not that title.
 
Jan 29, 2013
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Dominion was. very balanced, and it uses a concept that has been used and proven successful in many other games. Also, invasion wasn't that complex. Two teams, three linear objectives.

Then you may be using the wrong word.

When I say Dominion is the most unbalanced, I mean that the balance of weapons is the most extremely lopsided. I could hold a base by myself because of the rockets that would spawn there. The other team didn't have a chance. Tell me how that is balanced?

The imbalance then lead to one side being homeless --- BY DESIGN!! And this design lead to the hysteresis curve taking a sharp turn much quicker to accomplish the homelessness within a game as often as possible.

Invasion was much more than you make it out to be. If you honestly believe that Invasion was just like any other objective game, then take a look at the lessons I wrote up on forging an Invasion game. You might come away with a much greater appreciation for the hard work that Bungie put into creating the game type and the maps, and you might appreciate why 343i wouldn't invest into a playlist that didn't have a very strong following in Reach. I had nearly two dozen lessons to cover the key aspects of the game. You wouldn't get a dozen on Dominion or any other game type. Dominion in comparison is a poor man's cheap substitute.

I don't know what else I could point out about the two, so I guess I will leave it at that...
 
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Then you may be using the wrong word.

When I say Dominion is the most unbalanced, I mean that the balance of weapons is the most extremely lopsided. I could hold a base by myself because of the rockets that would spawn there. The other team didn't have a chance. Tell me how that is balanced?

The imbalance then lead to one side being homeless --- BY DESIGN!! And this design lead to the hysteresis curve taking a sharp turn much quicker to accomplish the homelessness within a game as often as possible.

Invasion was much more than you make it out to be. If you honestly believe that Invasion was just like any other objective game, then take a look at the lessons I wrote up on forging an Invasion game. You might come away with a much greater appreciation for the hard work that Bungie put into creating the game type and the maps, and you might appreciate why 343i wouldn't invest into a playlist that didn't have a very strong following in Reach. I had nearly two dozen lessons to cover the key aspects of the game. You wouldn't get a dozen on Dominion or any other game type. Dominion in comparison is a poor man's cheap substitute.

I don't know what else I could point out about the two, so I guess I will leave it at that...
The balance is in risk vs. reward. The rockets spawn outside of the base along with all of the other power weapons so the enemy, if quick enough, can snatch them and use them against the defender. Not to mention the limited supply of rockets with it
 

Rodan117

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As much as I loved Dominion, and it was my favorite new gametype in Halo 4, I admit it had a lot of balancing issues. I've played too many games where one team is in "sudden death" within the first minute of gameplay to be able to pretend it's balanced well. I think a suitable fix would be to have each team start with one base, and leave the third base up for grabs. I think Dominion has amazing potential and it realizes the "capture the base, hold the base" idea better than most games nowadays. It's addition brings, to me, a lot of diversity of gameplay and that has always been the strength of Halo.

My respect for Invasion comes from attempting to create an Invasion map of my own. Throughout Reach's lifespan I was never able to nail the gametype down, although I had a blast playing it in MM.
 
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ShockBolt21

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When I say Dominion is the most unbalanced, I mean that the balance of weapons is the most extremely lopsided. I could hold a base by myself because of the rockets that would spawn there. The other team didn't have a chance. Tell me how that is balanced?
They don't do that anymore. Since the update earlier this year, the only power weapons that spawn are initial ordinance, just like any other gametype, and the occasional spartan lasers in the bases to balance the vehicles.

...then take a look at the lessons I wrote up on forging an Invasion game. You might come away with a much greater appreciation...
dayum...
OK, invasion is somewhat complex in its design (probably more so than Dominion). I remember being surprised to hear that the gametype can be used in forge, thinking that it would be too complicated for the community to work with.

But all of that being said, I think that they're both great gametypes, and that Dominion is a worthy replacement for Invasion, if not close.
 

theSpinCycle

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...Those games are not Halo ...Again, this is Halo. These games need to be balanced because if they were then this topic would not have been created...

The way I'm seeing this if you want games life CoD or BF, then play those games.This is Halo and it does need some form of what makes Halo Halo.It needs some form of balance while having most of the random factors removed..

"This is Halo" means nothing. Define Halo. The games are so different that any attempt to categorize them outside of generalities like "you have guns and your shields recharge" is near hopeless.



(you'll have the same opportunity once your drop is ready).
H4 has pro and legendary playlist for the competitive players, and infinity playlists for those who enjoy that. It provides players with greater ability to customize their player, catering to a wider variety of tactics. Also, I'll never agree with you guys on what you claim about H4 custom games.

The problem with Halo 4's pro and legendary playlists is that they are still god-awful competitively. Even the competitive playlist of the game, Team Throwdown, has personal ordnance, sprint, descope, the same awful game balance as the rest of the game, dice-roll guns (BR, Scattershot are two good examples) and other such nonsense. The argument that the existence of a marginally better playlist makes the game worthwhile for competitive players is just untenable when you compare the "competitive" side of Halo 4 with the competitive side of any of the more popular eSports titles these days. MLG and the days of Halo's popularity are far away.