Halo Is the entire Halo series as we know it becoming old and out of date?

[GrmnEscaltrPrty]

Easy.

1. H4 Camera worse than Reach (throws you around the map when it tries to move you a certain distance from a piece you're placing into solid geometry; this happens pretty often - happened to me once today and I don't really forge anymore).
2. Pieces are much more tapered and often have holes in them when tiled (Wall Coliseum, Tunnels Short and Long, Block 2x2 talls are the first offenders that come to mind)
3. Poorer water (no water on any map but Forge Island, and Forge Island's is opaque, doesn't give us the option to put sand underneath, and doesn't really react to the player)
4. H4 Off Host glitch - makes it very difficult to coforge - when you're offhost and load up a map in forge, colors won't load properly and objects will be shifted from their proper positions
5. noisyyyyyyy (apart from Forge Island, on which the white is arguably worse than Reach's gray - at least we had different shades of gray..)
6. Purple FX and Rock Arch (most useful in their categories respectively) both removed
7. Dynamic lighting glitches and worries - makes indoor spaces look very bland, especially on Forge Island where you get Reach syndrome x2
8. No good flat ground (Forge Islands aren't even flat.. annoying for symmetrical maps)
9. Unnecessary polygons added - more lag worries (5x1 thin, 2x2 tall, brace large, wall coliseum, and the bottoms of bridge pieces are the prime offenders)
10. Some textures on Forge Island have part of the Ravine texture that shouldn't be there (ahem corner 45s)

I could go on and on, but the point is made. It is possible to make a strong case that Reach's forge is better than Halo 4's.



First part: Makes sense.
Second part: Been able to remove them? The biggest issue I have with this is the assumption that strafing and bullet travel time are bad. Not sure if this is a misinterpretation.



I'll give you that non-TU Reach matchmaking is awful. But Halo 4 vCoD Infinity Slayer isn't? And the matchmaking in all earlier Halos was worse than aforementioned Halo vCoD?

Balance (assuming you mean weapon balance) is certainly not the only problem or even the biggest problem in Halo 4. We need in-game ranks, a spectator mode, multiplayer theater back, and a spawning system that isn't absolutely awful (ridiculous that the team spawn influencer is bigger than the enemy's - it's a big part of why you can spawn with an enemy in your face.. unfair and frustrating for both players). The quality of the Reach menus and medals was also quite nice. Halo 4 has an awfully cluttered HUD as well (getting a distraction, revenge, kill, and/or comeback kill causes text to pop up in the center of your screen? a distraction, revenge, kill, and comeback kill are even worth medals?? If having those pop up constantly is not distracting, I don't even know what is..)

Alright I've got a few points to be made about you

So you say that there's a 5x1 thin? There isn't because i forge daily and i see NO 5x1 IN THE FORGE MENU.
Also reach syndrome for forge world and for the grayness isn't better than forge islands sandy grass aspects and the brownish island with trees. It really isn't that bad, and you say you don't forge much anymore du to the things you've mentioned? Well thats probably because you're not taking a creative look at the things you can do in forge. Also some things have holes in them when tiled is correct but i mean if you're making a large map and you're testing 1v1s on it obviously someones going to look through the hole to see where the other persons at. But if you do it right you can make it so no one has time to actually look thought the holes. (Sorry for run on sentence) Anyways, you could just move the walls closer without using magnets (obvious way to do it), if you really don't like holes in objects then you really aren't going to be someone who makes things that look good without pointing out small details like such.

There are minor texture issues its objects but not enough to the point where it just looks terrible. The camera in forge i agree needs some improvements and the way you have to grab objects also needs to change, zoom needs to be brought back along with fine editing. Also forging isnt noisy unless you have your volume set high enough to REALLY here the background noises to being a monitor. Forging is a lot better in 4 but some things need to be brought back and some things to be tinkered with. But cut 343i some slack they're doing they're best to make Halo better alright? I mean this IS their first time making a halo game. (Yes they helped with anniversary but that doesn't count)

 

[ShockBolt21]

xAudienceofone
(I'll just tag you because I'm way too lazy to respond quote by quote)

Strong points you made:

-Forge Island's water appears as a visually unappealing "canvas of blue" when you look at it from the wrong angle up close. It's good enough that one can tell it's water, but still lacks 'realisticness.'


Points you made that are true but aren't necessarily that big of a problem:

-We shouldn't have to cover our holes. There aren't actually that many blocks with holes, and it's not hard to get around/cover the holes, and, if you look at it on the bright side, the holes can actually make the object look more detailed at a medium distance. If you move the hole out of the way so you can't get eye level with it, it can actually, arguably, in some circumstances, be a nice thing to have on the object. But I still completely understand why you are opposed to them.


Points you made that I disagree with:

-"The colors are indeed pretty, but so are Forge World's natural colors." Actually, the first thing I think about when I think Forge Island is the absence of strong colors and contrast. The grass seems to be too thin, revealing patches of brown that really weaken the green color. The trees are too thin to contribute enough green to brighten things up. All of the rocks and natural cliffsides seem to give off a meager, unappealing grayish color, while 4's rocks are deep brown.

-Your argument for grey over white. When I look at a large Reach forged area, like this one, I find it so dull, bland, and colorless. The white ones look so much richer and nicer. I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll never like the grey color over white. I still think that you'd take my side if you saw a split-screen comparison between a block-heavy reach map and a block-heavy 4 map, like I saw during a youtube video (that I can't find again) on or before the release of Halo 4. It wasn't until then that I realized how large the improvement actually was.


Anyway, before this I couldn't imagine how anyone could prefer Reach forge over 4, but you and spin brought up some nice points that I hadn't considered, so I can see it your way a bit better. But I'm still convinced that 4's forge is easily the best, and I feel confident that I could make a list of 4's advantages several times longer than your lists for Reach. But anyway, audience, you provided some support for Reach, but which forge do you actually like more?

 

[GrmnEscaltrPrty]

Shockbolt Hows this to settle things



HALO 3's FORGE WAS DA BEST!!!!

 

[SOLIDSNAKEee]

Not trying to be a bitch, but it seems like you just said "Halo 3 customs are better because I had more fun playing them." You didn't really say why you had more fun or what actually makes 3 a better game

The removal of human aircraft sucks- I don't know why they did that. I feel like they could have done a beautiful job with the falcon in Halo 4. And yes, they removed some gametypes and added new ones- whether you prefer 4's (Extraction, Dominion, Regicide, etc) or Reach's (Juggernaut, Invasion, IP, etc) is completely a matter of opinion.

As a matter of opinion and the fact the majority of the Halo community agrees that Halo 3's custom games were be far the best in the series to date I can clearly see why you'd think that.. with that said I've yet to have any of those memorable experiences in any Halo's with the exception of say 1 or maybe even two of those memories but no where near as many as Halo 3. So with that being used as my own personal example Halo 3's customs beat any other Halo's to date but if we're going to get into a debate about this then try simply asking around the community or using the shoutbox and you'll see or atleast get a better explanation as to why Halo 3's customs were better.

Further more you'll understand that after Reach, most of the major custom gametypes used for custom games were taken out and I've stated another point with the forging part of the community and why they dislike this.

The best possible description I can give you for why they were better is that Halo 3 had some form of magic around it, something that brought people together and made them laugh and have fun. I don't know how long you've been part of the community or weather or not your opinion on Halo 3 is different than mine ( considering you've played the game ) but for the majority of people this is probably one of the best reasons you'll get.

I don't want to see more assault rifles in Halo- you don't need more than one.

I'm glad we've cleared that fact up.

Sure they have an excuse/explanation for its lack of realisticness, and I understand that, but that's not the point. Currently, in modern 2013 warfare, soldiers can fight and kill each other from 200 meters away with just their assault rifles. That's several times the length of Ragnarok, but in Halo you need to be right in the enemy's face to do anything with the assault rifle. Real life battles take place from extremely long ranges, and there's no reason that in 500 years we'll be back to close range like we were during the medieval days.[/quote]
You've got me on the 200 meters part but in every war soldiers have to get close soon or later and you still need to take into consideration that with huge maps and Halo's current sandbox, it would just lead to boredom or long ass stalemates. And its not an excuse, Halo isn't meant to be super realistic though it has that property to it in the story aspect. Halo brings the lulz and seriousness into the online experience but the mlinjonir was designed for stealthiness and effective use in close quarters or an open battle and to be effective in said situations. It also adds enhancements to physical properties of the wearer to increase speed , strength and a better HUD for when the Spartans needed it. Its not an excuse and it is canon. A Spartans armour is meant to help close the gap between them and the enemy though if we're talking MM you can never predict what a few thousand people are going to do and with that said, Halo is still just a game... a game. It's meant to be fun and balanced though some would argue that Halo 4 still needs further balancing.

And also, the soldiers aren't jumping and strafing and freaking tap-dancing while they're fighting, and battles also require strategy, tactical thinking, planning, teamwork, and coordination. So when I get a kill in Halo just by sprinting into battle, getting up in someone's face, jumping around and killing them with one long clip-emptying burst of my assault rifle, without using strategy or coordination or any of those skills, it just doesn't feel right. And when I do try to play it smart, crouching and moving silently around enemy lines, staying behind cover, playing as tactically as I can get, it's extremely frustrating when I get killed by someone who sprints into my face and is jumping around out in the open using no tactics or any of the aforementioned skills while he destroys me with his BR in three seconds. It took me so long to sneak into that position, but he comes, finishes me, and is gone all in the blink of an eye, no matter how tactical or stealthy I try to be. Sure halo takes skill, but... come on.

I've already explained some of this above, the movement aspect atleast. Plus the sounds like a personal experience which you've called me out on and though it may some unfair it would appear that the enemy has/had taken advantage of a weakness that you failed to notice, you were unaware and that person caught you off guard. This happens in every game and more so with those damn bunny snipers in BF.

 

[xAudienceofone]

Points you made that are true but aren't necessarily that big of a problem:

-We shouldn't have to cover our holes. There aren't actually that many blocks with holes, and it's not hard to get around/cover the holes, and, if you look at it on the bright side, the holes can actually make the object look more detailed at a medium distance. If you move the hole out of the way so you can't get eye level with it, it can actually, arguably, in some circumstances, be a nice thing to have on the object. But I still completely understand why you are opposed to them.

Well we're arguing Reach vs. Halo 4 in this example, and Reach had no holes. Comparitavely, this makes Reach better when looking solely at the stupid holes in objects. No, it's no huge issue, but its a check in the 'bad halo 4 addition' category.

Points you made that I disagree with:

-"The colors are indeed pretty, but so are Forge World's natural colors." Actually, the first thing I think about when I think Forge Island is the absence of strong colors and contrast. The grass seems to be too thin, revealing patches of brown that really weaken the green color. The trees are too thin to contribute enough green to brighten things up. All of the rocks and natural cliffsides seem to give off a meager, unappealing grayish color, while 4's rocks are deep brown.

Where were the patches of brown? I remember lots of green in FW. Trees also don't lack brightness. They are not as bright as FI trees, but thay are far from dim. I'll give you the rocks thing, but I'll only say that Reach rocks had a slight tint of grey, they aren't fully grey by any means.

-Your argument for grey over white. When I look at a large Reach forged area, like this one, I find it so dull, bland, and colorless. The white ones look so much richer and nicer. I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll never like the grey color over white. I still think that you'd take my side if you saw a split-screen comparison between a block-heavy reach map and a block-heavy 4 map, like I saw during a youtube video (that I can't find again) on or before the release of Halo 4. It wasn't until then that I realized how large the improvement actually was.

I agree, the video had a terribly monotone map. However, if that were in Halo 4, it would have messy textures and white space rather than clean textures and grey space. Same thing, really. The issue is not the pieces there, its that the map is enormous and has little aesthetic thought.

But anyway, audience, you provided some support for Reach, but which forge do you actually like more?

Oh, I really don't care. both have upsides and both have downsides. All I know is that Halo 3's forge was worse and Halo 4's forge could have been much better.

 

[ShockBolt21]

HALO 3's FORGE WAS DA BEST!!!!

Shit, if I found out that you actually thought that and weren't joking, I'd rage my ass off

As a matter of opinion and the fact the majority of the Halo community agrees that Halo 3's custom games were be far the best in the series to date I can clearly see why you'd think that...

I see what you mean when you described those moments you had. I've never played H3 customs with the community, but I have had, and still have, those moments in Halo 4, and they're some of the best times I've ever had playing video games in my entire life. Maybe these moments were even better in Halo 3, I wouldn't know, but if so it's probably because of the community at the time, not the game, so there's really nothing 343 can do about that, and it's not their fault that it's lost. Anyway, I have done a hell of a lot of asking around the community about this, and their answers are pretty much the same as yours, or they said it's because of the increased customizable game options. There aren't that many more options in H3, not enough to dramatically affect gameplay, and if you count the H4 custom options for ordinance, killcam, and other H4-specific traits, the gap is even smaller.

Anyway, Tomtris, I know you favor H3 and oppose H4. Maybe you can provide your two cents?

Also, I think that people are simply feeling nostalgic for Halo 3. Mr Pokephile touches on this topic in this video. Listen to his commentary from 5:56. More people need to start realizing this.

Where were the patches of brown? I remember lots of green in FW. Trees also don't lack brightness. They are not as bright as FI trees, but thay are far from dim. I'll give you the rocks thing, but I'll only say that Reach rocks had a slight tint of grey, they aren't fully grey by any means.

Maybe there aren't patches of brown- sorry, I haven't played Forge Island in a while. Maybe it's just that the Ravine grass is a bit fuller and richer, or maybe I'm just completely wrong about this.

I agree, the video had a terribly monotone map. However, if that were in Halo 4, it would have messy textures and white space rather than clean textures and grey space. Same thing, really. The issue is not the pieces there, its that the map is enormous and has little aesthetic thought.

The Halo 4 textures only look bad when the objects are thrown together- in Reach you can kinda throw objects around with a bit less organization and it won't look as messy as it would in 4 because there's less texture and the objects can kinda blent together a bit better. But if that map was forged using the H4 blocks, not only would the white surroundings make it look better (in my opinion), but the textures on the blocks would line up in neat rows and overall make for a better looking map, as the walls, ceiling, floor, and columns won't be completely bland- they'd have the textured patterns on them. If you line them up right, you can use the block textures and patterns to your advantage to make the map look nicer. The H4 textures are only really bad when you don't know how to use them (this is just my opinion). It's kinda hard to picture just from imagination- maybe I'll forge a similar arena in Halo 4 and we'll take a screenshot and compare it with Darth's Reach arena. This should help me prove my point a bit.

 

[RogerDodger]

Anyway, Tomtris, I know you favor H3 and oppose H4. Maybe you can provide your two cents?

 

[theSpinCycle]

Yeah the pieces have holes, but any good forger shouldn't have a problem covering them up or choosing a better piece for the purpose without holes....

Audience took the response from out of my mouth

As for the noise, it isn't that loud (can be adjusted, of course), and personally I like listening to it while I forge instead of building in complete silence.

I was talking about noisy textures. The sound is fairly easy to mute if anybody doesn't want to hear it (although it's a little silly to have to do that).

Sure they took out Rock Arch, but they added many new ones. And not to mention all of their other additions, all of which have proven to be extremely useful (the entire Dominion category, canvas-specific objects, trait zones, gravity volumes).

Rock Arch was extreeemely important because it let forgers make smooth curves and perfectly flat surfaces (the underside of the Rock Arch was exactly flat). As for Dominion, see Audience's response. Canvas specific objects are a little silly IMO. Considering 343 took the time to actually make the objects, why not retexture them and make them usable everywhere? As for trait zones and gravity volumes, they have a bug where they can reset to default. For example, early versions of Rail had a problem where if you jumped on top of the monitor things in front of railgun spawn, you could get radar ("unchanged" meant Infinity Slayer settings and not "unchanged from the gametype").

Personally, I've never had any problems with lighting. Not one.

Not really an argument. People with different forging styles can be severely limited by dynamic lighting even though they're well under max budget. Dynamic lighting on Erosion is also broken, as 343 seems to have turned it off on some objects and kept it on others.

Forge island is pretty much as flat land as you'll ever need- certainly more flat than any area on Reach by far.

It's not flat. Annoying as heck when trying to make a symmetrical map. Especially when you've sketched it beforehand assuming flat ground

I figured you wouldn't completely understand- it's hard to find the right words to fully explain it. Really I'm just trying to say that I find the game more immersive when the player movements are realistic and he actually moves like a human being, and can't fire with pinpoint accuracy while tap-dancing.

So basically you want the movement to feel realistic?

In-game ranking... SR and CSR, right? Also, I'd prefer to have the words in my face, but I perfectly understand why you don't like them. But really the only significant issue you mentioned is the spawning, but that's not as bad when you're playing objective games like CTF.

SR is in-game and a progressive rank. It has a very weak correlation (if any) to your skill at the game and doesn't impact the players you match up with in matchmaking. CSR is not ingame, hence it being a joke. Devs were scared of "boosters." As for spawning, regardless of what gametypes you think it's worse in, it's worse than Reach's. For that matter, spawning in CTF is not particularly great either, especially when you consider that you have only half of the map to spawn in, effectively doubling the chances that you'll spawn with an enemy in view.

Halo vCoD? The 2 games are still very different, and will always be. Neither the combat or the feel of the 2 games are even closely alike. Sure you have loadouts and occasionally a killcam, but does that really make them more similar by any amount worth mentioning? The killcam in Halo 4 is some bullshit, sure, but its not hard to ignore and can be skipped/turned off. The loadouts significantly enhance the gameplay.

The Halo developers definitely ripped on CoD. Killstreaks, perks, etc plus I recall some perks/things ripped straight out of CoD that were cut and found by modders. The point is that the developers aren't looking at the game with a pure "How can we fix the problems of Reach?" They're changing the identity of the game by asking "What can we borrow from successful games?"

As for loadouts, I disagree and I can prove my argument in seven words: Camo sniper, pro vision, and camo boltshot.

I feel it would be good to carry on discussion of your forge-related responses to Spin's list that I 100% agree with (with some small exception when regarding water in trhat it helps reduce max-object lag and such).

Forge Island isn't remotely close to having lag, though Apart from that, I remember the reasoning for having opaque water being the difficulty/impossibility of adding it to a game post-launch.

Yeah, I'll agree with this. It's too flat in my view. I don't see your issue with it, Spin...p

^my two cents.

The point I'm trying to make is not whether there should be more height variation (I think there should) but that the canvas has enough height variation to annoy people making symmetrical maps and not enough height variation to do anything meaningful with. Perhaps something like one completely flat island and two with more varied terrain would be better..

Anyways, for the most part I agree with you, Audience.

 

[theSpinCycle]

There aren't actually that many blocks with holes

I just started to go through all of the structure pieces in Forge and count which ones have holes when you line them up along the three axes. I quickly went through the entire category of building blocks before stopping (sorry, got a little bored because the results were obvious) and found exactly zero pieces without holes in some form.

-Your argument for grey over white. When I look at a large Reach forged area, like this one, I find it so dull, bland, and colorless.

Damn. I don't think I've ever seen a map that gray. I think anybody trying to avoid it can do a better job at worst than that..

I feel confident that I could make a list of 4's advantages several times longer than your lists for Reach.

Do it. It doesn't make sense for us to debate points about Reach>4 without considering the points regarding 4>Reach.

Where were the patches of brown? I remember lots of green in FW. Trees also don't lack brightness. They are not as bright as FI trees, but thay are far from dim. I'll give you the rocks thing, but I'll only say that Reach rocks had a slight tint of grey, they aren't fully grey by any means.

I can attest to the brown on the islands.

 

[ShockBolt21]

I can attest to the brown on the islands.

Yeah, the Forge Islands aren't necessarily the most beautiful land formations in existence- I'll agree to that. But the other three forge canvases look really nice, and the grass on Ravine is much better.

The Halo developers definitely ripped on CoD....

True, and that's quite obvious. But does that really make the game worse?

As for loadouts, I disagree and I can prove my argument in seven words: Camo sniper, pro vision, and camo boltshot.

Noooo, promethian vision is very well balanced. and yeah, the other two combos can get annoying. But the advantages of loadouts far outweigh these, and I'm so glad to have them. Besides, these issues can still be resolved without removing loadouts by altering the capabilities of active camo or the boltshot.
Anyway, I'm short on time now, but I'll definitely be sure to have that H4>Reach list ready by tomorrow

 

[xAudienceofone]

Noooo, promethian vision is very well balanced.

lol, nope.

Pros: ability to see through walls almost instantaneously. Ability to see grenades as bright and red.

Cons: blue monotone sight, long (ish) recharge, and a bright light that lets people know you're using provision.

Pros seem to heavily outweigh cons.

 

[GrmnEscaltrPrty]

lol, nope.

Pros: ability to see through walls almost instantaneously. Ability to see grenades as bright and red.

Cons: blue monotone sight, long (ish) recharge, and a bright light that lets people know you're using provision.

Pros seem to heavily outweigh cons.

I'd like to point out that when using promo vision you're more likely to be paying attention to whos around that corner rather than to A. Look at your radar to see whos behind you (if) B. They're less likely to expect smart tactics C. They're also less likely to realize you're capable of using your radar. Using promo vision is very balanced because like most of the support and tac packages in 4 they make you more likely to focus on utilizing it as often as possible, therefore weakening your attention on key elements to gameplay and getting kills. I end my end of the argument with a last fact about the balance of promo vision, the cons you mentioned become the pros of his opponents. They'll know you're using it when they confront you. The blue sight makes it harder to see some other things like where you're going and the long recharge allows their opponent to counter more effectively then with a short recharge timer.

 

[ShockBolt21]

lol, nope... Pros seem to heavily outweigh cons.

Not really. The movements of those with promethian vision is usually quite predictable. They see me around the corner, and the red light notifies me of this so I immediately know that he's gonna come around with his gun blazing. I crouch and wait, watching his dot on the radar and when he comes around, before he knows it he's standing in the center of a well thrown pulse grenade and receiving a stream of storm rifle bolts to the face. Also, I'd have a perfectly good opportunity to retreat when I realize he's pro-v'd me. Seeing through the wall isn't even that big of an advantage (especially when it blows your cover) as both players notice each other and can predict each others' movements.

 

[xAudienceofone]

Well it seems we are at odds. I would argue the point, but you both seem fairly convinced, as am I. I cannot see any way that pvision is balanced, but if all that balances if for the lot of you, so be it.

 

[ShockBolt21]

Do it. It doesn't make sense for us to debate points about Reach>4 without considering the points regarding 4>Reach.

Why Halo 4 Forge is better than Reach Forge

-Four canvases instead of one, that include
*Unique themes
*Unique themed pallets
*Map-specific objects

-More objects to forge with, including
*Dominion objects
*Trait zones and gravity volumes
*Map-specific objects
*Fully customizable ordinance drops
*Metal pallets and destructible wooden pallets and jersey barriers (I think they're H4 specific)
*A variety of sandbags to choose from

-Magnetism with adjustable magnitude
-Ability to lock objects
-Ability to duplicate objects
-Objects highlighted and labeled while selected
-Arrow pad controls to more easily access important tools
-Delete by Pallet ability
-More detailed objects
-White object color (I still stand by this opinion)
-Dynamic Lighting
-Trees and new rocks in Forge Island
+2 lights
-Better graphics
-Modded maps supported and widely available

This list is a bit smaller than I thought it would be, but I'm pretty sure it's still enough to outweigh the negatives you listed.

 

[theSpinCycle]

I don't know what's up with this promethean vision sidetrack or why you think it's not game breaking.. but I'll address it anyways.

But the other three forge canvases look really nice, and the grass on Ravine is much better.

Erosion looks really nice? With the borked dynamic lighting?

Impact and Ravine I could see a case for, but the other two are just plain awful. As for the grass, there's very little flat grass to use on Ravine, which is kinda lame The only flat section (the forerunner area) tends not to mesh well with the UNSC pieces.

True, and that's quite obvious. But does that really make the game worse?

Not necessarily. Halo copying CoD just means Halo will be behind CoD (or "out of date" if you want to reference this to the title of the thread).

But the advantages of loadouts far outweigh these

Still curious about why you think loadouts are beneficial as a concept.

Not really. The movements of those with promethian vision is usually quite predictable. They see me around the corner, and the red light notifies me of this so I immediately know that he's gonna come around with his gun blazing. I crouch and wait, watching his dot on the radar and when he comes around, before he knows it he's standing in the center of a well thrown pulse grenade and receiving a stream of storm rifle bolts to the face. Also, I'd have a perfectly good opportunity to retreat when I realize he's pro-v'd me. Seeing through the wall isn't even that big of an advantage (especially when it blows your cover) as both players notice each other and can predict each others' movements.

IDK about that scenario - it assumes the PV player is an idiot and will run out in the open / doesn't mind wasting his promethean vision when he could have just looked at his radar.

One of the problems with promethean vision is its effect on map design. It ignores all LoS and can see spawning people through walls among other things.. Somebody on the opposing team is about to respawn? Promethean vision, now you know where they are from halfway across the map.

Why Halo 4 Forge is better than Reach Forge

-Four canvases instead of one, that include
*Unique themes
*Unique themed pallets
*Map-specific objects

-More objects to forge with, including
*Dominion objects
*Trait zones and gravity volumes
*Map-specific objects
*Fully customizable ordinance drops
*Metal pallets and destructible wooden pallets and jersey barriers (I think they're H4 specific)
*A variety of sandbags to choose from

-Magnetism with adjustable magnitude
-Ability to lock objects
-Ability to duplicate objects
-Objects highlighted and labeled while selected
-Arrow pad controls to more easily access important tools
-Delete by Pallet ability
-More detailed objects
-White object color (I still stand by this opinion)
-Dynamic Lighting
-Trees and new rocks in Forge Island
+2 lights
-Better graphics
-Modded maps supported and widely available

This list is a bit smaller than I thought it would be, but I'm pretty sure it's still enough to outweigh the negatives you listed.

Pretty sure we could get wooden pallets in Reach. Not 100% though. Anyways, lighting doesn't render properly on the jersey barriers.
Magnetism is broken - many of the magnet points don't line up properly (if you haven't noticed this, line up five or six 3x4 blocks, big side facing down, using magnets) Magnets are also often in useless places (ex: 1x2 shallow ramps) and some pieces don't have magnets at all.

Duplicating / highlighting are pluses.

Locking is a somewhat random feature unless you're looking to delete a large, specific portion of your map at some point. Deleting by category is also quite niche.

Detailed objects can also be a negative (see holes argument above).

White, ok. It's an opinion though

As for lighting, it could be a plus and it could also be a minus (especially on Erosion / indoor FI)

Modded maps aren't anything brand new either. They were there in Reach, too.


Some great points here, others kind of iffy. Glad to see we can get both sides of the argument out there.

 

[ShockBolt21]

I don't know what's up with this promethean vision sidetrack or why you think it's not game breaking.. but I'll address it anyways.

Erosion looks really nice? With the borked dynamic lighting?

Impact and Ravine I could see a case for, but the other two are just plain awful. As for the grass, there's very little flat grass to use on Ravine, which is kinda lame The only flat section (the forerunner area) tends not to mesh well with the UNSC pieces.

Still curious about why you think loadouts are beneficial as a concept.

One of the problems with promethean vision is its effect on map design. It ignores all LoS and can see spawning people through walls among other things.. Somebody on the opposing team is about to respawn? Promethean vision, now you know where they are from halfway across the map.

Game breaking? I've always seen provi as that one armor ability that's completely worthless and not worth having in my loadouts. I mean, sure, it provides the user with an advantage like any other ability, but I never would have thought anyone could ever see it as game breaking. Also, it would only ignore line of sight if it were able to shoot through the walls.

I am extremely glad to have loadouts because I can now play Halo the way I want to, with my own strategies and tactics. I don't see how anybody would rather be forced to use a particular weapon. If everybody was given just a battle rifle to fight with, then the game would be all about how skilled you are with a battle rifle. Personally I'm not all that good with the weapon because I'm horrible when it comes to aim. But when I can choose my weapons and abilities, I don't need to be good at this one specific element of the game in order to do well. I use active camo and the storm rifle, as well as a completely tactical, stealthy, and cautious gameplay style, allowing me to do well.

Erosion is a really nice looking map, and the pallet matches the theme very nicely. Broken lighting? Only in a few infrequent occurrences, and it can be fixed. I've forged an entire map on Erosion and have been tweaking and updating it since its creation in April, and I had no issues with the lighting, so it's not a recurring issue that every forger has to deal with on every erosion map.

Magnets don't work well with some building blocks, I've realized, but for most items it's extremely useful, and, combined with duplication, it exponentially cuts the time it takes to make a large walkway, ramp, wall, or flat space. Besides, having magnets is better than not having them, and you can always turn them off, so 4 still gets points for that.

Modded maps were strictly forbidden in Reach.

Lighting doesn't render at all for jersey barriers or any scenery objects. This isn't an issue- it was done like this intentionally.

Anyway, I'm short on time again. I'll see if I can address a few more of your points tomorrow.

 

[GrmnEscaltrPrty]

One of the problems with promethean vision is its effect on map design. It ignores all LoS and can see spawning people through walls among other things.. Somebody on the opposing team is about to respawn? Promethean vision, now you know where they are from halfway across the map.

That doesn't even happen that often. We're talking more so looking around corners advantage/disadvantages.

 

[theSpinCycle]

Game breaking? I've always seen provi as that one armor ability that's completely worthless and not worth having in my loadouts. I mean, sure, it provides the user with an advantage like any other ability, but I never would have thought anyone could ever see it as game breaking. Also, it would only ignore line of sight if it were able to shoot through the walls.

I could have said that better - to clarify: you can see people spawn through walls without map geometry interfering. Anyways, the silliest AA IMO (or at least it was pre-TU, haven't played much MM post-TU so I can't be sure what it's like now) was thruster pack.

Anyways, if you haven't tried already, try playing with Promethean Vision on the Pit with coordinated teams. Ow.

I am extremely glad to have loadouts because I can now play Halo the way I want to, with my own strategies and tactics. I don't see how anybody would rather be forced to use a particular weapon. If everybody was given just a battle rifle to fight with, then the game would be all about how skilled you are with a battle rifle. Personally I'm not all that good with the weapon because I'm horrible when it comes to aim. But when I can choose my weapons and abilities, I don't need to be good at this one specific element of the game in order to do well. I use active camo and the storm rifle, as well as a completely tactical, stealthy, and cautious gameplay style, allowing me to do well.

I guess this is turning into a side discussion along with the pro vision thing

So you like loadouts because they offer choice. (This is kind of a silly question, but) would you say that having Rocket Launchers in loadouts is a good idea because it allows players to play Halo the way they want to, with their own strategies and tactics?

Assuming no to that answer - then shouldn't loadouts be balanced?

Would the game really be all about your battle rifle skills? Is there a such thing as "battle rifle skills?" You have to aim at somebody's body/head/vicinity regardless of what gun you're using - so why does it matter what gun you're using? Are you asking for choice when it comes to the rate of fire of your weapon or the way the reticule looks, or perhaps some other variable, as opposed to wanting choice for the sake of choice?

Erosion is a really nice looking map, and the pallet matches the theme very nicely. Broken lighting? Only in a few infrequent occurrences, and it can be fixed. I've forged an entire map on Erosion and have been tweaking and updating it since its creation in April, and I had no issues with the lighting, so it's not a recurring issue that every forger has to deal with on every erosion map.

The issue's not all-pervasive, but what must be asked is "Do you have to be more careful with your objects on Erosion or Forge World? Ravine or Forge World?" etc. That's another question.

Magnets don't work well with some building blocks, I've realized, but for most items it's extremely useful, and, combined with duplication, it exponentially cuts the time it takes to make a large walkway, ramp, wall, or flat space. Besides, having magnets is better than not having them, and you can always turn them off, so 4 still gets points for that.

Somewhat. If I could argue that magnets benefit us less than some other hypothetical innovation, which would take less time to complete than magnets, then having magnets would be worse than not having them. That's semantics, though. Anyways, the holes in conjunction with the magnets are quite annoying. If you magnet snap, say, 4x4 blocks together, they will be offset from the grid and therefore have even more noticeable holes between them..

Modded maps were strictly forbidden in Reach.

They're "forbidden" in Halo 4 too. The different attitude of the different developers doesn't have to do with the qualities of the forge tools. Not 100% about this, but I recall the Reach MM BTB map Trident being modded.

Lighting doesn't render at all for jersey barriers or any scenery objects. This isn't an issue- it was done like this intentionally.

Well, descoping was removed from the game intentionally and it's an issue.

 

[VaultingFrog]

Honestly I find Halo is becoming dated simply because players seem (in my eyes) to be expecting instant gratification/reward for any action they do in the game. Rewards that make them feel superior to other people/players. Sure there are some things to be proud of that are difficult however, by in large games have become increasingly... simple isn't the right word but I cant think of an appropriate word that conveys my thoughts on it.

FPS gaming (to me) has become a bland mush that is rapidly becoming pointless. One game blends into the other in terms of the mentality of the players. Its the same old garbage over and over again. Who has the better e-peen or e-boob (depending on you being a guy or girl) is the normal gameplay now. Yet in reality they aren't performing anything special as the game itself just doesn't have that kind of challenge anymore.

I know I am nuts. But its what I think.