Discussion: Abortion and the Reproductive Rights of Women

[PandaMan]

The pain argument is commonly used by the pro-life movement because according to them, "the fetus can feel it". This of course is not true and I'd prefer to get it out of the way before the rage kid mentions it. Scientifically speaking, responding to stimuli is a required piece of criteria for something to classify as a biological organism. It is for that same reason that virus doesn't classify as life.[source] Feeling pain is an important point because until 20 weeks, the sensory systems and neural connections required to respond to stimuli are absent. Just like I stated above, most abortions occur in the first trimester, way before the age of 20 weeks.[source] Philosophically speaking, we can argue on what defines a human. A human being is something capable of consciousness and independent thought, freedom and survival, would you not agree? If there is one absolute fact in the universe, it is the fact that your own thoughts exist and that you are conscious of your own existence. A fetus cannot do this, not until the brain has sustain emotional reactions at week 24 anyway.

Not fully forming sections of your body is completely different than not feeling or thinking.

You used the word "capable." Now lets look at the definition of the word. Capable - Having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing. Do you agree that once born, a fetus "becomes" a baby and can make audible sounds. If so, I can say that a fetus is capable of speech, consciousness, independent thought, freedom, and survival?

It isn't a matter of whether a fetus CAN do this or CAN do that, it is whether the fetus is CAPABLE of doing this or that. It is a well known fact that the fetus will be self-conscious, will have independent thought, etc.

If a fetus is capable or doing all of those, I can also say that an embryo is capable of the above as well, because an embryo is capable of becoming a fetus. In regards to the responding to stimuli aspect, the embryo is also capable of responding to the stimulation. The comparison to a virus is not a good one. A virus is a virus. That is it. An embryo changes, a fetus changes, a baby changes, a teenager changes, an adult changes, etc.

There are plenty of people in the world that cannot feel, paraplegics, people in comas, and others. I presume that you would agree that they are still humans. But they cannot respond to certain stimuli.

 

[NinetysBorn]

The pain argument is commonly used by the pro-life movement because according to them, "the fetus can feel it". This of course is not true and I'd prefer to get it out of the way before the rage kid mentions it. Scientifically speaking, responding to stimuli is a required piece of criteria for something to classify as a biological organism. It is for that same reason that virus doesn't classify as life.[source] Feeling pain is an important point because until 20 weeks, the sensory systems and neural connections required to respond to stimuli are absent. Just like I stated above, most abortions occur in the first trimester, way before the age of 20 weeks.[source] Philosophically speaking, we can argue on what defines a human. A human being is something capable of consciousness and independent thought, freedom and survival, would you not agree? If there is one absolute fact in the universe, it is the fact that your own thoughts exist and that you are conscious of your own existence. A fetus cannot do this, not until the brain has sustain emotional reactions at week 24 anyway.

Not fully forming sections of your body is completely different than not feeling or thinking.

I find it funny how now you have nothing to say and didn't challenge anything I said. lol

 

[NinetysBorn]

You used the word "capable." Now lets look at the definition of the word. Capable - Having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing. Do you agree that once born, a fetus "becomes" a baby and can make audible sounds. If so, I can say that a fetus is capable of speech, consciousness, independent thought, freedom, and survival?

It isn't a matter of whether a fetus CAN do this or CAN do that, it is whether the fetus is CAPABLE of doing this or that. It is a well known fact that the fetus will be self-conscious, will have independent thought, etc.

If a fetus is capable or doing all of those, I can also say that an embryo is capable of the above as well, because an embryo is capable of becoming a fetus. In regards to the responding to stimuli aspect, the embryo is also capable of responding to the stimulation. The comparison to a virus is not a good one. A virus is a virus. That is it. An embryo changes, a fetus changes, a baby changes, a teenager changes, an adult changes, etc.

There are plenty of people in the world that cannot feel, paraplegics, people in comas, and others. I presume that you would agree that they are still humans. But they cannot respond to certain stimuli.

Just try to ignore the ignorant kid before it's too late and he leaves behind another terrible post >__>

 

[Berb]

You used the word "capable." Now lets look at the definition of the word. Capable - Having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing. Do you agree that once born, a fetus "becomes" a baby and can make audible sounds. If so, I can say that a fetus is capable of speech, consciousness, independent thought, freedom, and survival? It isn't a matter of whether a fetus CAN do this or CAN do that, it is whether the fetus is CAPABLE of doing this or that. It is a well known fact that the fetus will be self-conscious, will have independent thought, etc.

I'd like you to provide a source that states the neural pathways required for such thought and response have been fully developed in weeks 0 - 20. Weak neural paths begin to build starting week 17, but the connections required to sense, interpret, and respond have not developed until week 20. So no, a fetus that can be aborted is incapable of such actions. For fetuses later in development, where abortion is illegal, your statement is true. However, it holds no weight because of that illegality.

If a fetus is capable or doing all of those, I can also say that an embryo is capable of the above as well, because an embryo is capable of becoming a fetus. In regards to the responding to stimuli aspect, the embryo is also capable of responding to the stimulation. The comparison to a virus is not a good one. A virus is a virus. That is it. An embryo changes, a fetus changes, a baby changes, a teenager changes, an adult changes, etc.

But a fetus that can be aborted is not capable of doing all of those, so how could an embryo? And I don't think the virus connection isn't a bad one. In fact, a virus is just as much of an organism as a fetus is - both fail to fulfill all of the criteria for life. When you're talking about your "capability" argument, with the embryo and fetus, you're assuming that we're considering the entirety of fetal development - but we're not. When talking about abortion and reproductive rights, we're talking about whether or not the current abortion laws should be amended or not. All we're interested in are the first 20 weeks, because those are the ones in which abortion is legal. In that time frame, the fetus is physically incapable of the attributes I mentioned. There is a reason we have the law at 20 weeks, because late abortions cause the fetus actual distress.

There are plenty of people in the world that cannot feel, paraplegics, people in comas, and others. I presume that you would agree that they are still humans. But they cannot respond to certain stimuli.

There is a very, very broad line between not feeling or sensing certain stimuli, and being detached from your environment and responding to no stimuli whatsoever. Even people in comas have their neural network firing in the subconscious, whereas fetuses don't have that network established. Do you not see that?

 

[Berb]

I find it funny how now you have nothing to say and didn't challenge anything I said. lol

Well first of all, Panda posted first.

Secondly, you said the single most retarded thing I've heard: Science doesn't win debates

At least with Panda's posts, I don't have to correct all of the spelling and grammar of the posts.

 

[Spades N AZ]

Have you been raped? Have you ever conceived a child and been a part of that bond? Then why try to talk about such a personal decision which I hope none of you have had to face? People can talk this to death, and raise up their post count, but what healthy addition to a forum about custom games does this bring? I see a lot of people with a common interest of custom games looking for a reason to be antagonistic. Guys we are on here about customs. They have free rights forums and political forums elsewhere. Let's not sabotage a great thing. This is too good of a great thing, to be ruined by posting something, which always does and always will offend someone. It's just not worth it.

 

[Transhuman Plus]

Yeah it's called negligent homicide dumbass.

Homicide defined.
Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person or an unborn child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, criminally negligent homicide, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree.

source

It is more than a a more than legitimate arguement argument and provides a perfect truth for as to why you shouldn't get an abortion. You're Your rhetoric is what's ridiculous, completely flawed and backed up by your own personal issues.

So after Berb busts your "What if you were aborted" scenario like a child's balloon, your comeback is that HIS argument is flawed (with no back-up reasoning, except that your example is "perfect truth") you then proceed to say that Berb's argument comes from "personal issues".

"Oho!" said the pot to the kettle;
"You are dirty and ugly and black!
Sure no one would think you were metal,
Except when you're given a crack."

"Not so! not so!" kettle said to the pot;
"'Tis your own dirty image you see;
For I am so clean – without blemish or blot –
That your blackness is mirrored in me."

If you want to talk about that small percentage of rape victims impregnated and so on, then fine I understand that. I understand why they would get an abortion but again it is basically and in the long run murder. By the way I never mistreated or scrutanized scrutinized someone for choosing to go with an abortion.

5. Unless you were raped or something, abortion is cowardice and SHOULD be highly frowned upon.

A: "People who get raped and have abortions are murders"
B: "People who have abortions are cowards"
C: "I never scrutinized someone for having an abortion"

 

[Essias]

What the fuuuuuck is going on in here?

 

[The Frozin One]

I know this is a heated topic. However, I would like to encourage everyone on both sides of the issue to watch this short movie:

This movie covers a lot of the points that have been made in this thread. Please watch it all the way through and let me know what you think.

 

[Transhuman Plus]

Fuck you TFO. Seriously.

The first 13 minutes is comprised of a collage of people who don't know who Hitler is, explaining how bad Hitler was (Not the Nazi party, not xenophobia, not racism, Hitler himself) asking a serious of asinine questions like "would you kill Hitler in 1939 if you could", "would you kill Hitler's mother while she was pregnant if you could" (Ray Comfort can't resist throwing in "Hitler hated Christianity" in the mix while he's at this whole thing). The rest of the video attempts to shame those people if they answer that they're pro-choice, as if to equate them with Hitler and the tragedy of the Hallocaust. "You don't think babies are people? Hitler didn't think Jews were humans. You're as bad as Hitler." The video rounds out with a nice "Jesus died for you sins".

Anyone who wants to watch this video has to prepare of 33 minutes and 3 seconds of the few random people on the street who could stand Ray Comfort's masturbatory condescension long enough for him to get a good sound byte. It's usually "Oh! I didn't think about it THAT way before" or "Oh, I guess I am thinking how Hitler thought".

This movie covers a lot of the points that have been made in this thread.

Saying that the video is a movie is one thing, saying it covers "a lot of the points" is a lie, saying that it covers "a lot of the points that have been made in this thread" is fucking lunacy.

 

[The Frozin One]

Others quoted the dilemna of Hitler and Stalin being aborted earlier in the post. The question regarding human life, and whether or not a baby is living in the womb is brought up in the video, as well as this post. The video is on abortion, and it makes a very good case for why we should not take the life of a baby in the womb.

Why such hostility, Transhuman Plus?

EDIT: I do not believe Ray is trying to equate anyone to Hitler. He was a monster. What I believe Ray is trying to do is help people realize that abortion is no different than any other form of killing. Many people think it's okay because that's how society, the media and culture have presented abortion for a long time now.There are many different people that believe an unborn child is not a living creature based on a number of different reasons. It doesn't change the fact of the status of the child.

I am too old to be engaging in forum debates. I just wanted to share the link because after reading the thread, I thought it would be a good insight for those who have not looked at the issue from that perspective.

 

[Berb]

Others quoted the dilemna of Hitler and Stalin being aborted earlier in the post. The question regarding human life, and whether or not a baby is living in the womb is brought up in the video, as well as this post. The video is on abortion, and it makes a very good case for why we should not take the life of a baby in the womb.

Why such hostility, Transhuman Plus?

I brought Hitler/Stalin into the conversation as a way of criticizing the other guys argument, because it was flawed and simple. I also don't understand why people think a video by Ray Comfort talking to a neo-nazi is a reliable source for information about reproductive rights? You're seriously going to undeniably believe the guy who said the banana proves God?

The hostility explains itself.

 

[The Frozin One]

I also don't understand why people think a video by Ray Comfort talking to a neo-nazi is a reliable source for information about reproductive rights? You're seriously going to undeniably believe the guy who said the banana proves God?

The hostility explains itself.

It's amazing to see the demenor of the neo-nazi change from the beginning of the presntation to the end. His hard heart was softened when he realized that no matter what an individual has done, that God still loves them and desires to have a relationship with them.

People's hearts are hard on this issue. The video is a possible tool to soften those hearts.

 

[Transhuman Plus]

It's amazing to see the demenor of the neo-nazi change from the beginning of the presntation to the end. His hard heart was softened when he realized that no matter what an individual has done, that God still loves them and desires to have a relationship with them.

Yeah, it's so inspiring to see how he agrees with the crazy religious guy with the microphone to get it over with already so he can badger someone else. Nothing like talking to a religious nut telling you that you need to read the bible for 5 mins to sombre the mood.

People's hearts are hard on this issue. The video is a possible tool to soften those hearts.

Yeah, that's it. Me and Berb don't think there's a distinction between foetuses and babies, we just don't care if a few million babies get killed. You've clearly been paying attention to everything that's been said.

 

[PacMonster1]

Oh sweet sweet controversy.

I'll read all the arguments people have made eventually. For now all I'll say is I support a woman's right to choose and that abortion is a viable option when the circumstances require it.

 

[NinetysBorn]

Transhuman Plus
Like I said before, I shouldn't have said what I said. Which is why I deleted that post.
However, I stand by my arguement. It is a female's right to choose between keeping the baby or not. Even though I wouldn't recommend abortion. End of my story.

 

[mrgreenwithagun]

Discuss.

Once you determine when life begins, the debate falls away, doesn't it?

 

[mrgreenwithagun]

Fuck you TFO. Seriously....

Touched a sensitive spot, did he?

 

[Transhuman Plus]

Touched a sensitive spot, did he?

I consider a video that projects the idea of "confused, frivolous, young abortion sympathisers" who don't know what they are talking about that will suddenly change their minds and 'see the light' after being talked to the "confident rational Christian" a sore point, yes.

 

[mrgreenwithagun]

What the fuuuuuck is going on in here?

Some folks working out their emotions...