Discussion: Abortion and the Reproductive Rights of Women

[Berb]

However rather then preventing what could be, why not take a chance and have the baby be born and if you cant support it let a family who can take care of it.

Because if you do put a child up for adoption, the giant risk of that child never being adopted and finding a suitable home is too high. Also, women feel awful after giving their child away through adoption and regret giving the baby away, understanding that child will never know it's true mother.

What I meant was when I said "a growing un-care for life", I meant living in the violent sociaty we love in today where the young are starting to think dying is not big deal. Where the media shows people dying from shootings almost everyday. Also the fact that we see abortion as a no big deal when it is the killing of a soon to be child.

We actually live in a more peaceful society today compared to that of our parent's generation. In fact, the violent crime rate in the US is the currently at it's lowest point since the year 1970, with homicide rates at a 50-year low.[source]

Yes I understand that it is just a zygote, however it is cells, or better known as life the birthplace of life. We are all made of cells, cells that were first made in our mother's womb. Killing the cells that will eventually become us is straight murder.

The fact that we are made of cells doesn't equate to "killing cells = killing people"; our cells die and replace themselves all the time. The cells in a zygote are just as a part of the mother than her stomach cells are, does that mean she should be charged with murder after she eats acidic food? I'm just trying to point out the ridiculousness of the claim.

When I said that Im not trying to make it illegal, it was because there are certain things that when 2 parties are arguing there is almost nothing I can do to change the other's opinion. I use this in the argument of religion vs atheists.

If the parties don't discuss intelligently, act stubborn or are ignorant, then that is the case. Sometimes people can't cope with the fact that they've been taught lies their entire life.

So my closing statement is, there is nothing you can do to change my view and theres nothing i can do to change yours. Great argument, your probably the smartest person I have argued with in this topic, not using any idiotic statements. However I will continue to support my view on standing up for the soon-to-be-children of this generation.

No comment.

If that's the end of discussion, the I think we've had a good talk. Everyone, tell us down below who you think debated the best, and what strengths/weaknesses the both of us could have utilized to our advantages. Also tell us what you think about the topic!

 

[MrSireMan]

Because if you do put a child up for adoption, the giant risk of that child never being adopted and finding a suitable home is too high. Also, women feel awful after giving their child away through adoption and regret giving the baby away, understanding that child will never know it's true mother.



We actually live in a more peaceful society today compared to that of our parent's generation. In fact, the violent crime rate in the US is the currently at it's lowest point since the year 1970, with homicide rates at a 50-year low.[source]



The fact that we are made of cells doesn't equate to "killing cells = killing people"; our cells die and replace themselves all the time. The cells in a zygote are just as a part of the mother than her stomach cells are, does that mean she should be charged with murder after she eats acidic food? I'm just trying to point out the ridiculousness of the claim.



If the parties don't discuss intelligently, act stubborn or are ignorant, then that is the case. Sometimes people can't cope with the fact that they've been taught lies their entire life.



No comment.

If that's the end of discussion, the I think we've had a good talk. Everyone, tell us down below who you think debated the best, and what strengths/weaknesses the both of us could have utilized to our advantages. Also tell us what you think about the topic!

Agreeded

 

[Berb]

4. In my opinion adoption and keeping the baby should be your only options when considering taking care of a baby.

So the woman has two options, neither of which allow her to decide on what happens to the pregnancy? Just because of your situation, what you believe should be enforced on all women, of all social class, in all situations? Wow, you really are understanding and morally sound.

5. Unless you were raped or something, abortion is cowardice and SHOULD be highly frowned upon.

You say that as if a woman is proud and happy when she gets an abortion. Cowardice? No, true cowardice would not be to fight against intense social stigma from people like you, and to allow your life to collapse in front of you. Do you people not realize the shit you guys call women who have abortions?

This topic is very controversial and I myself don't like talking about it too much.

Then why'd you post?

From you guys' debating it seems the abortion side won. Even though abortion is, and always will be, wrong.

Says who?
Says God? Wait, abortion is nowhere in any religious scripture.
Says women? No, polls show women adamantly endorse pro-choice and contraceptive movements because they enjoy having the freedom to control what goes on in their body.
Says Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, your pastor, the pervy upper class white men in the house? Yes.

Abortion is only wrong if you want it to be. There is only stigma attached because of conservatives and fundamentalists refusing to grant women reproductive rights. So who told you abortion was wrong?

"Because if you do put a child up for adoption, the giant risk of that child never being adopted and finding a suitable home is too high" so you should kill the baby instead?

I don't think you understand the biology behind all this, do you? You see, Fetus =/= Baby.
Fetus =/= Long-term potential for baby. The mother and fetus share what we can call a parasitic relationship, meaning that the existence of the fetus is dependent on the mother. The mother gives up resources and carries the fetus, so why not be able to destroy if she feels necessary? And what about miscarriages? Do you feel they are cowardly and should be looked down upon?

 

[Ormy96]

I don't know what to say about this except that everyone has a choice.

 

[NinetysBorn]

So the woman has two options, neither of which allow her to decide on what happens to the pregnancy? Just because of your situation, what you believe should be enforced on all women, of all social class, in all situations? Wow, you really are understanding and morally sound.



You say that as if a woman is proud and happy when she gets an abortion. Cowardice? No, true cowardice would not be to fight against intense social stigma from people like you, and to allow your life to collapse in front of you. Do you people not realize the shit you guys call women who have abortions?



Then why'd you post?



Says who?
Says God? Wait, abortion is nowhere in any religious scripture.
Says women? No, polls show women adamantly endorse pro-choice and contraceptive movements because they enjoy having the freedom to control what goes on in their body.
Says Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, your pastor, the pervy upper class white men in the house? Yes.

Abortion is only wrong if you want it to be. There is only stigma attached because of conservatives and fundamentalists refusing to grant women reproductive rights. So who told you abortion was wrong?



I don't think you understand the biology behind all this, do you? You see, Fetus =/= Baby.
Fetus =/= Long-term potential for baby. The mother and fetus share what we can call a parasitic relationship, meaning that the existence of the fetus is dependent on the mother. The mother gives up resources and carries the fetus, so why not be able to destroy if she feels necessary? And what about miscarriages? Do you feel they are cowardly and should be looked down upon?

A fetus = baby. Just because it's not living or whatever bullshit science you want to bring up, if your parents aborted you then it's ok guys because you were you just a fetus and not a baby?? Is that what you're implying? What if your mother was aborted or your girlfriend or your brother/sister or your best friend? And the way I worded those previous points came out horribly wrong. I am not a close minded individual. In a nutshell I don't think abortion is something a mother should CONSIDER. Again though the option is always there but I WILL NOT sympathize with an unresponsible adult or dumb teenager for KILLING their child because they didnt use birth control or didnt care to use a condom. If you want to talk about that small percentage of rape victims impregnated and so on, then fine I understand that. I understand why they would get an abortion but again it is basically and in the long run murder. By the way I never mistreated or scrutanized someone for choosing to go with an abortion.

 

[Berb]

A fetus = baby. Just because it's not living or whatever bullshit science you want to bring up, if your parents aborted you then it's ok guys because you were you just a fetus and not a baby??

Bullshit science? You mean peer-edited, proven fact widely discussed and debated between dozens of people more intelligent than you and I? A baby isn't alive until birth.

What if your mother was aborted or your girlfriend or your brother/sister or your best friend?

Do you know the amount of times that rhetoric is used? I can also use idiot logic, ya know:
What if Hitler was aborted? What if Stalin was aborted? What if Pol Pot and Mao were aborted? In that case, abortion would save the lives of millions.
The rhetoric just doesn't fucking work. Demonizing the subject and trying to personalize it doesn't do you any favor, my friend.

I am not a close minded individual. In a nutshell I don't think abortion is something a mother should CONSIDER.

So you're not against it as an option, you just despise it so much that it should never be considered by any woman. Ah, I get it now.

Again though the option is always there but I WILL NOT sympathize with an irresponsible adult or dumb teenager for KILLING their child because they didn't use birth control or didn't care to use a condom.

You mean the situation you were in? If you believe unprotected sex not for the sole purpose of procreation, why did you have regret? But alas, I shouldn't demonize. Let me ask you a question: Why are you so merciless and cruel? Why do you hold such high opinion of unborn fetuses, but neglect the thoughts of real people?

I understand why they would get an abortion but again it is basically and in the long run murder. By the way I never mistreated or scrutanized someone for choosing to go with an abortion.

Do I have to reiterate about fetuses not being alive? You can't murder something that isn't alive. And you've never mistreated or unfairly criticized someone choosing abortion? Oh, how merciful. However you said that choosing abortion is cowardly and the woman deserves the negative stigma. Stop flip-flopping.

 

[Great Mist]

This is a halo site right?

 

[Great Mist]

Bullshit science? You mean peer-edited, proven fact widely discussed and debated between dozens of people more intelligent than you and I? A baby isn't alive until birth.



Do you know the amount of times that rhetoric is used? I can also use idiot logic, ya know:
What if Hitler was aborted? What if Stalin was aborted? What if Pol Pot and Mao were aborted? In that case, abortion would save the lives of millions.
The rhetoric just doesn't fucking work. Demonizing the subject and trying to personalize it doesn't do you any favor, my friend.



So you're not against it as an option, you just despise it so much that it should never be considered by any woman. Ah, I get it now.



You mean the situation you were in? If you believe unprotected sex not for the sole purpose of procreation, why did you have regret? But alas, I shouldn't demonize. Let me ask you a question: Why are you so merciless and cruel? Why do you hold such high opinion of unborn fetuses, but neglect the thoughts of real people?



Do I have to reiterate about fetuses not being alive? You can't murder something that isn't alive. And you've never mistreated or unfairly criticized someone choosing abortion? Oh, how merciful. However you said that choosing abortion is cowardly and the woman deserves the negative stigma. Stop flip-flopping.

Dam just.... Dam

 

[Berb]

This is a halo site right?

Yes, but that doesn't limit purely to Halo. Sometimes we can have discussions.

 

[Great Mist]

Yes, but that doesn't limit purely to Halo. Sometimes we can have discussions.

I see

 

[PandaMan]

Oh jeez, this thread again....

In the supreme court case, Roe v Wade, the judges ruled in favor of legalizing abortion after saying that they could not determine whether the death of a fetus was murder or not (ie, whether a fetus is a human being). So essentially, they said that they were not sure if something was okay, but said, sure go ahead and do it anyways.

(source needed, I'm correct, but I'm too lazy to find it)

 

[Berb]

Oh jeez, this thread again....

In the supreme court case, Roe v Wade, the judges ruled in favor of legalizing abortion after saying that they could not determine whether the death of a fetus was murder or not (ie, whether a fetus is a human being). So essentially, they said that they were not sure if something was okay, but said, sure go ahead and do it anyways.

(source needed, I'm correct, but I'm too lazy to find it)

They were conflicted because they internally had the same debate we're having right now. Science and progressive thought versus someone's opinion.

 

[PandaMan]

They were conflicted because they internally had the same debate we're having right now. Science and progressive thought versus someone's opinion.

The fact is that I have not seen anybody post any sources here, either side, especially when referencing studies done by scientists saying that life begins at birth.

Also, what about fetuses that are in the womb but can survive outside?

 

[Berb]

The fact is that I have not seen anybody post any sources here, either side, especially when referencing studies done by scientists saying that life begins at birth.

Also, what about fetuses that are in the womb but can survive outside?

Here's a couple:
How fetuses cannot aren't self-aware until 8 weeks, debunking the idea of life at conception
National Library of Medicine - pain can't be felt until week 20. The vast majority of abortion occur in week 14. Past 24 is illegal.

I've actually used some sources in my previous statements regarding the ramifications of banning abortion, especially with teen pregnancy rates. As for fetuses that can survive outside, their development is so far along that abortion is and should be illegal at that stage. Keep in mind, if the premature baby requires an incubator for survival, it cannot sustain itself and fails to fulfill one of the criteria for an organism.

 

[NinetysBorn]

Bullshit science? You mean peer-edited, proven fact widely discussed and debated between dozens of people more intelligent than you and I? A baby isn't alive until birth.



Do you know the amount of times that rhetoric is used? I can also use idiot logic, ya know:
What if Hitler was aborted? What if Stalin was aborted? What if Pol Pot and Mao were aborted? In that case, abortion would save the lives of millions.
The rhetoric just doesn't fucking work. Demonizing the subject and trying to personalize it doesn't do you any favor, my friend.



So you're not against it as an option, you just despise it so much that it should never be considered by any woman. Ah, I get it now.



You mean the situation you were in? If you believe unprotected sex not for the sole purpose of procreation, why did you have regret? But alas, I shouldn't demonize. Let me ask you a question: Why are you so merciless and cruel? Why do you hold such high opinion of unborn fetuses, but neglect the thoughts of real people?



Do I have to reiterate about fetuses not being alive? You can't murder something that isn't alive. And you've never mistreated or unfairly criticized someone choosing abortion? Oh, how merciful. However you said that choosing abortion is cowardly and the woman deserves the negative stigma. Stop flip-flopping.

1. It doesn't matter whether the baby is alive or not before birth what matters is the fact that the baby will be alive thus being responsible for a child's death.
2. You can't compare those scenarios to what "rhetoric" I was using. "What if hitler was aborted what if etc." Well then I guess we might as well kill all the babies huh? Again you're "idiot logic" doesn't work.
3. Good job reading. I never said that women should NEVER consider it, I just strongly emphasisized that females shouldn't consider this. Like I said before if they want to do it then fine it's their choice.
4. "If you believe unprotected sex not for the sole purpose of procreation, why did you have regret?" This sentence makes no sense. I had no regret. If you are going to be persuasive by trying to sound intelligent and by disparaging others at least finish your sentences.
5. You don't even know me "Why are you so merciless and cruel? Why do you hold such high opinion of unborn fetuses, but neglect the thoughts of real people?" wow that's such a great point berb you have such strong debating techniques "my friend" lol why don't we just all provide our opinions (something berb doesn't know of) and belittle everyone else who thinks otherwise while staying closed-minded.
6. Like I said before (feels great repeating myself) that was a wrong post. I'm not "flip-flopping."

 

[Berb]

1. It doesn't matter whether the baby is alive or not before birth what matters is the fact that the baby will be alive thus being responsible for a child's death.

So, now terminating a mass that isn't alive and can't feel pain constitutes as murder? It is purely potential. According to you, a woman can now murder potential that is technically part of her own body, therefore her rights should be restricted. Do you understand the absurdity of that statement?

2. You can't compare those scenarios to what "rhetoric" I was using. "What if hitler was aborted what if etc." Well then I guess we might as well kill all the babies huh? Again you're "idiot logic" doesn't work.

You see, here's the difference between you and I: I said the Hitler/Stalin/Mao stuff to make fun of your ridiculous rhetoric. You, actually believe it as a legitimate argument. You shouldn't be using those "scenarios" because in no way whatsoever are they relevant to any argument.

3. Good job reading. I never said that women should NEVER consider it, I just strongly emphasisized that females shouldn't consider this. Like I said before if they want to do it then fine it's their choice.

Would you like to elaborate on the vast difference between "should never consider" and " strongly emphasized should not consider"? Try and answer that best you can.

4. "If you believe unprotected sex not for the sole purpose of procreation, why did you have regret?" This sentence makes no sense. I had no regret. If you are going to be persuasive by trying to sound intelligent and by disparaging others at least finish your sentences.

In your first post, which you deleted because it didn't help you whatsoever, you said you were glad "your girlfriend didn't listen to you when considering abortion". My question is how can you of all people then pretend to stand on this higher moral plane belittling and stigmatizing people who consider having abortions? Just because of your experience, your viewpoint has clearly done a complete 180, to the point where you aren't willing to consider the economic and family situations of others.

5. You don't even know me "Why are you so merciless and cruel? Why do you hold such high opinion of unborn fetuses, but neglect the thoughts of real people?" wow that's such a great point berb you have such strong debating techniques "my friend" lol why don't we just all provide our opinions (something berb doesn't know of) and belittle everyone else who thinks otherwise while staying closed-minded.

I don't want to provide my opinion, because my opinion is so bullshit insignificant that it shouldn't be enforced in any way on other people. When you're discussing and debating, scientific fact dwarfs opinion-based arguments, because opinions are not credible. People don't give a rat's ass about how you feel, or your opinion. They care about the facts and argument you can bring to the table.

6. Like I said before (feels great repeating myself) that was a wrong post. I'm not "flip-flopping."

We're discussing, you can't just impulsively talk out of your ass and get away with it. Maybe think before you fucking post...

 

[PandaMan]

Here's a couple:
How fetuses cannot aren't self-aware until 8 weeks, debunking the idea of life at conception
National Library of Medicine - pain can't be felt until week 20. The vast majority of abortion occur in week 14. Past 24 is illegal.

I've actually used some sources in my previous statements regarding the ramifications of banning abortion, especially with teen pregnancy rates. As for fetuses that can survive outside, their development is so far along that abortion is and should be illegal at that stage. Keep in mind, if the premature baby requires an incubator for survival, it cannot sustain itself and fails to fulfill one of the criteria for an organism.

I'm quite tired so I'm going to keep this brief, sorry for that, I don't mean to disrespect part of your arguments. Using the ability to feel pain or really any sort of developent that some people can go without in life is really not a very good argument at all. It's like the OH MAH GAWD MAH BABY HAS FINGERNAILS IN THE WOMB. FINGERNAAAIIIILLLSSSSSS. But seriously, some people may not have fully formed brains, organs, body parts, etc. That doesn't mean that they aren't human and that they should be killed.

 

[NinetysBorn]

So, now terminating a mass that isn't alive and can't feel pain constitutes as murder? It is purely potential. According to you, a woman can now murder potential that is technically part of her own body, therefore her rights should be restricted. Do you understand the absurdity of that statement?

Yeah it's called negligent homicide dumbass.

You see, here's the difference between you and I: I said the Hitler/Stalin/Mao stuff to make fun of your ridiculous rhetoric. You, actually believe it as a legitimate argument. You shouldn't be using those "scenarios" because in no way whatsoever are they relevant to any argument.

It is more than a legitimate arguement and provides a perfect truth for why you shouldn't get an abortion. You're rhetoric is what's ridiculous, completely flawed backed up by your own personal issues.

Would you like to elaborate on the vast difference between "should never consider" and " strongly emphasized should not consider"? Try and answer that best you can.

Would you like for me to discuss the difference between no and maybe, for you as well? If you're too blind to see the difference between something a person should not do and something a person shouldn't consider, I might as well argue with a robot. Do you just read the words and forget that the implication could be completely different if you examine context or any other possiblities? You are an ignorant person and closed-minded.

you said you were glad "your girlfriend didn't listen to you when considering abortion". My question is how can you of all people then pretend to stand on this higher moral plane belittling and stigmatizing people who consider having abortions? Just because of your experience, your viewpoint has clearly done a complete 180, to the point where you aren't willing to consider the economic and family situations of others.

Like I said before (feels great repeating myself) that was a wrong post. Hmm that actually kind of sounded familiar for some weird reason. I wonder why. I never mistreated or scrutanized someone for choosing to go with an abortion. Hmm this feels weird is this deja vu? No it can't be.... Please by all means enlighten me with your vast increasingly proven knowledge of considering the economic and family situation of others. When I basically covered that entire arguement with my own personal experience and recognition of expectant mothers who are also victims. When all you've done is try to belittle countless others from the community.

I don't want to provide my opinion, because my opinion is so bullshit insignificant that it shouldn't be enforced in any way on other people. When you're discussing and debating, scientific fact dwarfs opinion-based arguments, because opinions are not credible. People don't give a rat's ass about how you feel, or your opinion. They care about the facts and argument you can bring to the table.

Science doesn't win debates. Or give the final truth. Especially when there is so much we have yet to learn and correct. The father and mother both have down syndrome now, based off of science, is the baby going to have the same mental handicap as well? You would say yes when the baby came out perfectly healthy.
Your "agruments," all flawed and now meaningless, provide no arguement what so ever. You keep repeating yourself and constantly bring in completely irrelevant information to the quoted statement or topic. I'm done with this conversation because at this rate it doesn't matter if i'm right because you're still going to be gushing repition, bullshit, ignorance. Any last words?

 

[NinetysBorn]

I'm quite tired so I'm going to keep this brief, sorry for that, I don't mean to disrespect part of your arguments. Using the ability to feel pain or really any sort of developent that some people can go without in life is really not a very good argument at all. It's like the OH MAH GAWD MAH BABY HAS FINGERNAILS IN THE WOMB. FINGERNAAAIIIILLLSSSSSS. But seriously, some people may not have fully formed brains, organs, body parts, etc. That doesn't mean that they aren't human and that they should be killed.

THANK YOU

 

[Berb]

I'm quite tired so I'm going to keep this brief, sorry for that, I don't mean to disrespect part of your arguments. Using the ability to feel pain or really any sort of developent that some people can go without in life is really not a very good argument at all. It's like the OH MAH GAWD MAH BABY HAS FINGERNAILS IN THE WOMB. FINGERNAAAIIIILLLSSSSSS. But seriously, some people may not have fully formed brains, organs, body parts, etc. That doesn't mean that they aren't human and that they should be killed.

The pain argument is commonly used by the pro-life movement because according to them, "the fetus can feel it". This of course is not true and I'd prefer to get it out of the way before the rage kid mentions it. Scientifically speaking, responding to stimuli is a required piece of criteria for something to classify as a biological organism. It is for that same reason that virus doesn't classify as life.[source] Feeling pain is an important point because until 20 weeks, the sensory systems and neural connections required to respond to stimuli are absent. Just like I stated above, most abortions occur in the first trimester, way before the age of 20 weeks.[source] Philosophically speaking, we can argue on what defines a human. A human being is something capable of consciousness and independent thought, freedom and survival, would you not agree? If there is one absolute fact in the universe, it is the fact that your own thoughts exist and that you are conscious of your own existence. A fetus cannot do this, not until the brain has sustain emotional reactions at week 24 anyway.

Not fully forming sections of your body is completely different than not feeling or thinking.