Halo Random Drops

[Skyward Shoe]

So, I was looking today at the new maps to see them completely drowning in Random drops, with in 1 scenario an initial dropped shotgun sitting on top of 2 random dropped ones. I looked at this and thought, why in the world not just make this a re-spawning shotgun?

So I have a question for the community: Do you guys like random drops and weapons appearing randomly on the maps, or do you still prefer the re-spawnign weapons of Halo's past?

Personally I feel introducing luck into a skill based game is a poor design choice, as no matter how much better you are or how long you've been working for it someone else can just happen to get a rocket drop in front of them unexpectedly and kill you. I personally like knowing where weapons are going to drop, and I like to have control of this factor when forging, as often times random drops lead to weapons falling in places that they will dominate in, such as a sniper near the top of the map or a shotgun in a CQC hallway, removing the element of Risk vs. Reward. I don't like that in MM, power weapons are distributed not to those who work to control an area, but on a totally random basis.

Leave your thoughts below. I'd like to see how much of the community supports the direction 343i is taking weapon placement/ distribution, as they seem intent on continuing with this and I do not understand why.

 

[Berb]

Very much still prefer the on-map spawning weapons.

 

[a ninja samuri]

i like the ordnance it gives a more futureistic army feel

 

[Skyward Shoe]

i like the ordnance it gives a more futureistic army feel

I'm not talking about the ordnance drop animation itself, but Random ordnance drops as a means of dispersing weapons. Weapons spawning in the same locations every X amount of seconds like in Halo 1 through Reach vs. weapons appearing in random spots around the map in an unpredictable fashion.

 

[Berb]

i like the ordnance it gives a more futureistic army feel

But it doesn't help competitive gameplay by removing the advantage of map knowledge.

 

[mazdak26]

It's not so much map knowledge as properly balancing control-based weapons (weapons that don't require much skill to use and are balanced by the fact that you were able to pick them up in the first place and not die while having it) as opposed to skill based power weapons that are balanced by the skill it takes to use them (sniper rifle). While it is OK (readk, not beneficial in any way) ti have the second kind of power weapon in ordinance drops, the first category simply cannot be there because it is balanced by excatly nothing anymore. Tl;dr old one was better. New one is dumb. Waypoints over weapons would have solved this phenomenon that 343 deemed was such a huge problem (as oppose to the actual problems with reach.

 

[evergreen948]

I much prefer the old style weapon spawning... Random times and places makes the game unbalanced

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

I'm a little indifferent. The fact it's less competitive is good.

 

[Indie Anthias]

I can imagine the perspective that supports random drops. It is the idea that a those successful in combat have the ability to react quickly to unexpected things. Consider this quote:

"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."
- from a post-war debriefing of a German General

The fictional explanation is that the Infinity drops weapons randomly on the battlefield to better train the Spartans to deal with the unexpected, and to make every game experience different.

That's the theory. In practice, I think this random drop system fails to produce this effect. I also think the possibility of every weapon appearing on every map does more to destroy the unique character of a map than to expand it's versatility (though personal drops are more at fault than randoms for this).

I kind of agree with Freedom Cobra though, it doesn't really affect me too much, and I like to play less competitively. But I don't really think random drops necessarily make for a particularly casual experience either.

My verdict... negative, but not severely.

 

[Skyward Shoe]

I thought I'd also add why I don't like them from a forger's perspective. Back in Halo 3 and Reach, a vital part of map design was where the power weapons would go, and maps were largely centered around this. Power weapon positions had to make sense, had to be dangerous, and the fact that everyone knew where they were made them all the more so. These weapons were an integral part of designing a map in other words.

If one wants to design for the new system, however, these weapons become much more obsolete. After the first rush, the weapons never reappear in the same place (minus a few special circumstances.) Those areas balanced just so for those weapons no longer make sense, and so can't even be incorporated into the design in the first place. Weapons need to be able to spawn all over, and because of this weapons almost have to be allowed to spawn in places you don't want, like rockets on a high ledge or a shotgun down in a CQC area. All the sudden a whole factor of how you design your map is kind of just gone, and I feel maps lose a lot of character because of this.

I have chosen not to use random drops so far in my maps, because I don't want to give up this design freedom, not to mention the gameplay issues they cause. Are there any redeeming factors of these things I am overlooking?

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

I can imagine the perspective that supports random drops. It is the idea that a those successful in combat have the ability to react quickly to unexpected things. Consider this quote:

"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."
- from a post-war debriefing of a German General

The fictional explanation is that the Infinity drops weapons randomly on the battlefield to better train the Spartans to deal with the unexpected, and to make every game experience different.

That's the theory. In practice, I think this random drop system fails to produce this effect. I also think the possibility of every weapon appearing on every map does more to destroy the unique character of a map than to expand it's versatility (though personal drops are more at fault than randoms for this).

I kind of agree with Freedom Cobra though, it doesn't really affect me too much, and I like to play less competitively. But I don't really think random drops necessarily make for a particularly casual experience either.

My verdict... negative, but not severely.

I do support personal drops. They add a new element and a reward, also you can get a support upgrade to give you another chance. I like them for forge because it isn't forced on you, but those who choose to integrate it can it however they like.

 

[FatThe2nd]

Its fun, adds flavor to the game. Plus, if there were regular weapon spawns, people would just camp at them, its very annoying. If people want regular weapon respawning, then go play some throwdown. I play it, very fun and competitive.

 

[mazdak26]

I do support personal drops. They add a new element and a reward, also you can get a support upgrade to give you another chance. I like them for forge because it isn't forced on you, but those who choose to integrate it can it however they like.

The only reward you should receive for killing a bunch of guys is points. That's it. That's why you kill people in the first place - for points. If you were to achieve something else in the game that didn't involve killing, but still had some competitive aspect to it, then you should be rewarded with an advantage. If you agree with that, then the awesome feat is beating out opponents to get those weapons, and the reward is the weapons.

Boom.

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

The only reward you should receive for killing a bunch of guys is points. That's it. That's why you kill people in the first place - for points. If you were to achieve something else in the game that didn't involve killing, but still had some competitive aspect to it, then you should be rewarded with an advantage. If you agree with that, then the awesome feat is beating out opponents to get those weapons, and the reward is the weapons.

Boom.

Um...I didn't understand that so yes to personnel ordnance or no?

 

[mazdak26]

of course not. Killing people should reward you with points and points only.

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

Points are worthless to me.

 

[Skyward Shoe]

My biggest problem with personal drops is not the idea of being able to drop weapons in, but some of the weapons you can drop in. In my custom games, I play a variant in which the Rockets, Splazor, Sniper, Fuel Rod, Sword, Hammer, Beam Rifle, Binary Rifle, and Incineration Cannon have been removed, but with all other power weapons, grenades, and boosts left in. The weapons I chose to remove I chose for 2 reasons:

1.) The sheer power of these weapons can turn a game, and I felt that luck should not make such an important decision. These weapons should be placed on map so that strategy plays a larger role in determining the outcome. I don't want to promote camping for weapons of course, and so these weapons are always put in riskier locations on the map, balancing out the fact that you know where they will be.

2.) As stated above, I feel that removing weapon placements from a map and allowing all weapons to have a chance to be on it causes problems in maps with certain vehicles and removes the character of the map. Many maps in Halo's past have very memorable weapon sets and placements, and I hate to remove this feature entirely.

I think overall, I'm ok with a little bit of randomness to mix things up, but not so much that it can swing a game against a team that worked harder and played smarter. I'm not a super competitive player, but a situation where a team was being beaten and is given a free rocket launcher to me feels cheap to the team who managed to succeed in pushing them back. For FFA, a mode that is largely random, more randomness makes more sense, as it's not geared around the competitive aspect as much as it is the lolsy fun aspect (though I can get petty wrapped up in FFA games sometimes, I just plain like to win )

I guess that's really what it boils down to: Are you playing more to win, or playing more to have fun? I think a balance of both is healthy, but for those who do play to win to a large degree it is kind of boltshot bullshit when other players get an advantage when they didn't have to do anything to get it. No give and take or risk vs reward. There's my 2 cents.

Edit: And I guess that is what the Random Drops are: a focus on Halo being less about winning and more about having fun. Not dropping the competitive aspect completely, but engaging more of the group that prefers for more fun, less serious games. This is also why a lot of people are upset about the change, as a lot of players, like me, have never liked the super competitive Throwdown style gameplay, but now the regular modes have strayed farther away from "playing to win" than we would like. Regular matchmaking is a middle ground of sorts for all players, and with Halo 4 343i decided that the better middle ground would be a little less competition focussed and a little more "just for fun" focussed. Some people agree with this change, I don't entirely, but who's to say what will actually make more people happy.

Best final answer in the end is probably to just give us more custom game options, let us decide for ourselves what part of the spectrum we prefer. Interesting conversation so far guys, I love to think about this kind of stuff as you can probably tell by now.

 

[Ariel Morgan]

I'm a little indifferent. The fact it's less competitive is good.

NO it's not.

Even though the "competitive" players are a much smaller set of players than the Casuals/pubs the "competitive" community is what drives the game's improvement.

IMO an attitude like yours will only make a game stagnate and rot to the point that no one plays it. Issues with balance are only perceived by pubs at a much later time and to a much greater dismay than competitive players. Simply: Competitive players strive for the game's improvement and will either stick it out or leave immediately. Casuals/Pubs will play the game for funsiez until it's realized how imba the game is and they quit immediately, and they never drive product improvement.

I want my money spent on this game to go as far as possible.

Now for the topic:
Yes, random weapon drops are completely dumb and should have been scratched at their earliest mention. Although I cannot blame them for trying something new/different, but it (Randomness) doesn't work in any competitive environment when it's that much a part of the gameplay.

Now, what I honestly think is that they started with the random drops and that they will (hopefully) balance the maps and place respawning weapons on them.
This will be completely the case in competitive game modes. It should be the case in all modes (for the most part).

Now, this wont necessarily make the game more "Competitive", it will however make the game more strategic and far more rewarding for people who understand how to utilize the information they have (weapon placement, timing, approach, etc).

 

[the night bat]

I do not like random weapon drops. But, in some cases, such as the 2v2 haven, it's a great idea to have the railgun having a waypoint above it, but still make it respawn in X time

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

NO it's not.

Even though the "competitive" players are a much smaller set of players than the Casuals/pubs the "competitive" community is what drives the game's improvement.

IMO an attitude like yours will only make a game stagnate and rot to the point that no one plays it. Issues with balance are only perceived by pubs at a much later time and to a much greater dismay than competitive players. Simply: Competitive players strive for the game's improvement and will either stick it out or leave immediately. Casuals/Pubs will play the game for funsiez until it's realized how imba the game is and they quit immediately, and they never drive product improvement.

I want my money spent on this game to go as far as possible.

Now for the topic:
Yes, random weapon drops are completely dumb and should have been scratched at their earliest mention. Although I cannot blame them for trying something new/different, but it (Randomness) doesn't work in any competitive environment when it's that much a part of the gameplay.

Now, what I honestly think is that they started with the random drops and that they will (hopefully) balance the maps and place respawning weapons on them.
This will be completely the case in competitive game modes. It should be the case in all modes (for the most part).

Now, this wont necessarily make the game more "Competitive", it will however make the game more strategic and far more rewarding for people who understand how to utilize the information they have (weapon placement, timing, approach, etc).

I'm extremely uncompetitive, but no one is happier about all weapons being balanced in H4(save Carbine). And I'm still pissed about the Brute Chopper & Hornet. The casuals still want improvements.

THE ASSAULT RIFLE HAS RETURNED!