Halo Halo 2- truly the best?

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ShockBolt21

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Feb 1, 2013
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I've been playing Halo 2 online, and I still don't really understand what's so great about the sandbox.

Players have very few options as to how they play their game. Because there are no armor abilities, players can do nothing more than run around and shoot. No strategy or thinking is required, no way to outwit your opponent. I used to love sneaking around with active camo in Halo 4 to quietly reach strategic positions and get a jump on unsuspecting players, but the only way to take down an enemy in Halo 2 is to jump in front of his face and challenge him directly, hoping that nobody else will engage you before you finish him off and get back to cover. If one of his buddies shows up, or if he happens to have a better gun than you, you're screwed.

Otherwise, the battle will simply go to the player with better aim. Both combatants will stand in the open, jumping around like monkeys and emptying their clips until one drops dead. There are no ways to outsmart your opponent, and the only skill a player needs in Team Slayer is that of good aim. Escape from battle is extremely difficult due to slow movement speed, as well as overpowered and abundant grenades.

Players' frustratingly slow movement speed makes it difficult to avoid grenades (they're everywhere), escape from battle, or traverse cover. Even when bullets are raining down on you and you're trying to escape, your spartan will refuse to move faster than what seems like a leisurely stroll. The game was much better when it had sprint.

The game is very difficult for someone like me who likes to play more carefully. In maps like Lockout, for example, the only way to move between covered positions is to walk a relatively long distance across an exposed walkway or through the central plane area. I hated having to expose myself like this- it's incredibly stressful walking through an open area where it's so easy to get picked off by snipers, battle rifles, or whatever else is out there. The fact that your guy moves like a snail certainly doesn't help.

These problems persisted in Halo 3, but Halo 4 solved them by allowing players to move faster when necessary, and giving us more combat options through customizable loadouts and armor abilities.
 

Insane54

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Dec 23, 2012
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The problem you're getting here is that you weren't around to play the earlier games, and now you're stuck without the 'metagame' that came with it.

Halo 2 and 3 were *very* 'team' focused. That is to say, team positioning and communication were the main factors that made or broke teams. If you keep respawning and looking for an enemy, you're doing it wrong. That said, is it wrong that newer games focus more on each individual player's experience? I think in some ways it's a really good change, though in other ways it seems like the older Halo fans are essentially yelling "get off my lawn!". I personally miss that teamwork feel, and hopping into Halo 2 or 3 sometimes can revive some of it, but it's more than understandable that players newer to the series would feel much more comfortable with the new games. I think that's the idea that 343i was going at; hopefully Halo 5 strikes that perfect balance between individuality and the old-school teamwork and communication.
 

a Chunk

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Nov 14, 2013
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If you're jumping around like a monkey, then you're doing it wrong. The movement requires forethought and awareness. Intelligent movement is rewarded more. Thoughtless movement is easier to punish.

Battles are supposed to be difficult to escape from.

Lockout is a bad map for TS.
 

Squally DaBeanz

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Jan 9, 2013
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"I've been playing Halo 2 online, and I still don't really understand what's so great about the sandbox."
Alright, I can already tell you're new to this, so let's break things down, shall we?

"Players have very few options as to how they play their game. Because there are no armor abilities, players can do nothing more than run around and shoot. No strategy or thinking is required, no way to outwit your opponent."
Saying no strategy is involved is simply not true. In classic Halo, strategy came from micro-positioning, anticipation of enemy movement and tactics, map knowledge, power positions, weapon control, and map control. Halo has always been about those things. If you want to succeed in a match, you and your team would have to control the map and weapons in strategic and logical ways. Get to the power weapons, move to the more defendable and strategic locations, push the enemy spawn... There are a number of ways to use strategy, and there is a lot of thinking required. It just may not be visible right away. Classic Halo games have what is called a skill gap- the difference between someone just starting and an expert is very large and apparent. There are intricacies and tricks that need to be learned and refined over time.

"I used to love sneaking around with active camo in Halo 4 to quietly reach strategic positions and get a jump on unsuspecting players, but the only way to take down an enemy in Halo 2 is to jump in front of his face and challenge him directly, hoping that nobody else will engage you before you finish him off and get back to cover. If one of his buddies shows up, or if he happens to have a better gun than you, you're screwed."
Here's a question: In Halo 4, did you earn that active camo? No, it was something you equipped in a menu. Halo was never about who could abuse combinations of loadouts via a menu. Equal starts meant everyone had the same chance and same abilities as everyone else to do well in the game. It came down to personal skill and strategy. Jumping in someone's face to attack them is neither skillful nor strategic. Hoping someone doesn't show up and interrupt the fight is just plain ignorant. Hope isn't a strategy. You should always be anticipating any possible scenario, and prepare accordingly.

"Otherwise, the battle will simply go to the player with better aim. Both combatants will stand in the open, jumping around like monkeys and emptying their clips until one drops dead. There are no ways to outsmart your opponent, and the only skill a player needs in Team Slayer is that of good aim."
If both players are jumping around in the open shooting at each other and ignoring the rest of the map and the players in it, then both players are performing poorly. Running out in the open is never a good strategy. A player should stick close to cover, stay with his team, move through areas that are confirmed to be safe, be aware and ready for any possibility, and be able to adapt on a moments notice. Outsmarting your opponent isn't done through imbalanced gimmicks like armor abilities. It's done through positioning, map control, and clever movement.

"Escape from battle is extremely difficult due to slow movement speed, as well as overpowered and abundant grenades. Players' frustratingly slow movement speed makes it difficult to avoid grenades (they're everywhere), escape from battle, or traverse cover. Even when bullets are raining down on you and you're trying to escape, your spartan will refuse to move faster than what seems like a leisurely stroll. "
Actually, the base movement speed of Halo 2 is faster than Halo 4. Escape should be anticipated and possible through positioning, not by pressing a button to sprint. Same goes for grenades. If you want to be able to escape quickly and not deal with long range combat, stick to close quarter areas of the map but risk being hit by grenades or shotguns. If you want to be able to have a good view and engage at longer distances, stick to a more open area but risk too many sightlines on you or being outgunned by a better player. This is what's known as risk versus reward. There is always a trade off, and you have to pick your battles and disadvantages to what you feel you can adapt to the best. If there was only one answer to a strategy, or only one way to win a match, then everyone would do that same one thing over and over. This would become boring and pointless. The point of the game is to use the options laid before you to determine how best to go about handling constantly changing battles.

"The game was much better when it had sprint."
This is a very heated topic in the community right now. Much of the highly competitive community would have to disagree with you. Sprint causes many problems. When sprinting, your gun is lowered, meaning that you cannot engage in a fight. Ironically, this slows down the gameplay. You should always have your weapon at the ready. Sprint also affects map design and the sandbox itself negatively. With sprint, a player who made a poor choice can easily escape being killed and punished for that decision. This shouldn't happen, as it lowers the skill gap I mentioned earlier. To counter this, maps with sprint in mind have to be much larger and more bloated, leaving too much empty space for anyone participating in an actual firefight rather than sprinting away. It also increases sightlines throughout the map, making many of the utility weapons in the game (Battle Rifle and Carbine) less useful in what should be their respective ranges of combat. To counter this in the past, these weapons were given longer engagement distances, which caused more problems. Now players were engaging each other at distances where the other two pillars of combat, grenades and melee, were irrelevant. This also caused too much cross mapping in larger more open maps, like in Big Team Battle. So, what can be done to counter that even further? The only logical thing would be to break up sightlines some more. The problem with that, however, is that it would lead to more compartmentalized and difficult to understand maps. Halo maps are supposed to be simple arenas that are easy to learn and understand. People should be able to see each other, but not necessarily be able to engage each other at that distance. Further segmenting the maps would also lead back to the original problem of players being able to escape a poor decision too easily, and the vicious cycle begins all over again.

"The game is very difficult for someone like me who likes to play more carefully. In maps like Lockout, for example, the only way to move between covered positions is to walk a relatively long distance across an exposed walkway or through the central plane area. I hated having to expose myself like this- it's incredibly stressful walking through an open area where it's so easy to get picked off by snipers, battle rifles, or whatever else is out there. The fact that your guy moves like a snail certainly doesn't help."
Again, the base movement speed in Halo 2 is faster than Halo 4. The fact that you're saying the game is difficult after the examples you gave of gameplay lead me to believe you still have a lot to learn about the intricacies of the sandbox, and the strategies that accompany it. Lockout can be a very safe map to move around if done correctly. Again, this comes from proper control of the map and its weapons, as well as an understanding of the map itself, its sight lines, its power positions, its movement options, and the movement of the enemy players. If it's too dangerous to move a certain way, then don't. The nature of Lockout is that the flow is forced through the middle. This is by design, as it's meant to force combat into certain scenarios. These scenarios can be learned and mastered.

"These problems persisted in Halo 3, but Halo 4 solved them by allowing players to move faster when necessary, and giving us more combat options through customizable loadouts and armor abilities."
Just to reiterate: Faster movement isn't the problem here. A lack of knowledge of the game is. I've already stated how sprint harms the game, and loadouts are even worse. They add an unnecessary and unpredictable fourth pillar to the combat that can't be countered in many scenarios. There's no risk versus reward with armor abilities. Only reward. They provide an advantage to players in ways that are different for each person without them being earned or controlled or contested over.

Halo doesn't need sprint to be good. It needs players who understand how to play the game without sprint.
Halo doesn't need extra abilities to be good. It needs players who understand that thinking is the best ability.
Halo doesn't need loadouts to be good. It needs players who understand that weapon balance and control is key.
Halo doesn't need to be dumbed down to be good. It needs players who understand Halo.
 
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ShockBolt21

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I don't like to fight battles that aren't favorable to me. In Halo 4, using active camo, I could set up situations in which I had the upper hand by sneaking up on the enemy. This is difficult to do in Halo 2, partially because of the game's dynamics but also because of the map design. Warlock, for example, was too small to really sneak around in. It's difficult enough to stay alive on that map- I find myself tucked in those little structures on the ground trying to keep safe from the battle rifle shots and grenades ringing out everywhere else. But I'm a dead man as soon as I'm spotted, as the structure is easy to fill with frags, and as I mentioned earlier I can't really run away. The only viable strategy on that map seems to be to join the fight and try to outgun the enemy in direct open combat, which I usually can't do.

My problem could be that, since I haven't played any objective games yet (they always vote for Slayer BR dammit), enemy positions and movement are difficult to predict. In Slayer, players seem randomly scattered across the map as suggested by the second law of thermodynamics, making it difficult to anticipate their locations. As a result, I found it difficult to use any strategy at all.

Or maybe I'm just sore from getting my ass whopped!

I think that my tactics just aren't suited for H2. I guess I'm just too used to being able to disappear with the tap of a button to avoid all combat, or to sprint away from any unfavorable situation.
 

Jebus

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Jan 10, 2013
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I don't like to fight battles that aren't favorable to me. In Halo 4, using active camo, I could set up situations in which I had the upper hand by sneaking up on the enemy. This is difficult to do in Halo 2, partially because of the game's dynamics but also because of the map design.
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Armor abilties =/= on map equipment
 

ShockBolt21

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I know that sounds bad. I'm not implying that I want the game to give me an advantage. I'm saying that I want to have the opportunity to establish that favorability by myself. Think of it this way:

I prefer to outwit my opponents (by actively setting up an advantage for myself before the battle) rather than outgun them (fighting the engagement from an even playing field and trying to win by skill alone).

The US military, for example, would agree with this. They don't just send their soldiers to clash with the enemy head on, hoping that the soldiers can land their shots and pull off a victory. They ensure that our guys will have the upper hand before sending them in so that they can accomplish the mission. They'll launch airstrikes, gather intelligence, sneak the soldiers in- whatever they need to do to establish the advantage beforehand.
 

Madirate

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Feb 16, 2013
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I know that sounds bad. I'm not implying that I want the game to give me an advantage. I'm saying that I want to have the opportunity to establish that favorability by myself. Think of it this way:

I prefer to outwit my opponents (by actively setting up an advantage for myself before the battle) rather than outgunning them (fighting the engagement from an even playing field and trying to win by skill alone).

The US military, for example, would agree with this. They don't just send their soldiers to clash with the enemy head on, hoping that the soldiers can land their shots and pull off a victory. They ensure that our guys will have the upper hand before sending them in so that they can accomplish the mission.
. Sounds like you want Halo to be the next Call of duty.
 

a Chunk

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Nov 14, 2013
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The differences you're describing between old school and new school Halo are spot on. Those differences are the primary reason why most people who started with earlier Halo games are generally outraged with the direction of the more recent iterations of the game. They really make Halo into an entirely different game than it was originally.

I share your sense of frustration....only I feel it when I play Reach and H4. And it's not even that I hate those games, because I don't. They're just so far removed from the Halo I had grown to love. What made Halo so amazing for me was its purity...its simplicity. While it's obvious that that simplicity is not coming back in future Halo games, I can at least enjoy TMCC (assuming they can fix it). Halo 5 seems to be somewhere between the two, so it will be interesting to see if they get the balance right.
 

Skyward Shoe

Platinum in Destiny
Dec 24, 2012
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I don't think you understand. You are still supposed to be outwitting your opponents. Good players don't usually win by being better at landing BR shots consistently. This is part of being good, but it's actually a relatively small part.

When you see a player running a certain direction and can make an educated guess about where they will be and when, that is outsmarting your opponent. You are trying to place yourself in a position that is favorable whenever you can. That is the very concept of Power Positions in a nutshell. There is, of course, risk involved in getting to said positions, as well as in staying in them too long. The only players who move randomly around the map are either not very good at the game or tired and choosing to not pay attention (me most nights.) The fact is, Halo is mostly a battle of wits in trying to understand what the enemy team/ player is doing, where they are going, and their general strategy.

Using an armor ability however is not playing smart, it's abusing a broken system. Not everyone spawns with Camo or armor lock, and even if they do these things just serve to slow down the game and distract from actual combat. The fact is, if you put yourself in a disadvantageous position you do not deserve to be able to get out of it through sprint or an armor ability. You made a bad decision, so you suffer the consequences. If you get out of it, it should be because you pulled an incredibly skillful move to make up for your not-so-smart decision. Halo never gave "get out of jail free cards" until Reach.

I would like to differentiate one thing here too: Pickups vs load outs/ AA's. When you get ahold of a pickup like camo on a well designed map, then you have earned it for the time it lasts. In this case you had to compete against others to get ahold of it, and you have it only for a short while and only for that life. This fits Risk vs. Reward, so it is acceptable. Spawning with a special ability however means that you get a reared that you can always use that is specific to you, and you can use it to save your ass when you didn't do anything to earn it. Most of the AA's are far too useful to be something you have off start, or they change the game on a fundamental level and distract from the combat/ strategy when overused, hence why pickups are favored by competitive players.

Finally, I'd like to say that if you don't like this stuff, if you prefer to play games where you get advantages and can abuse them, that's fine. You don't have to like what Halo used to be, though I would say it is wise to appreciate why they are good for highly competitive and fair play. I personally can't stand a number of well loved Halo maps from Halo 2/3 because they punish my play style, but I can appreciate that they are very good maps nonetheless. The only issue is wanting them to change the series to fit you better, because that disrespects all of the people who originally came to love the series and takes away any chance for them to see it improve. If they want to radically change how the game works, it should be a new IP, allowing the players who originally flocked to the game to see that style of play refined and improved further without messing up the core.
 
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Allow me to take a moment to explain the role of the BR and Grenades as you seem to hate players spawning with them so much... The BR is a utility rifle. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. It's intended to give you a fighting chance against opponents that have power weapons, but is clearly out classed by them in relative ease of use or sheer killing power. Additionally, it's outclassed by other lower tier weapons when engaging players that use them in their niche situations, such as the AR at close range (although the highly skilled can still pull off a kill despite the odds being against them).

Grenades are intended to be the same to an extent. They're meant to be the great equalizer in asymmetric engagements where a player is out numbered or outclassed, affording them the opportunity to preemptively strike to adjust the engagement more in their favor. This dynamic is lessened significantly on small maps such as Warlock though when the pace of players dying is of much higher tempo, but on larger maps such as Sanctuary (Shrine as you probably know it) it holds true.

Also, as some one that served in the US Marines, your analogy of the military and having Armor Abilities is full of shit. What is of utmost importance is foresight, understanding how your opponents will fight, anticipating their moves as you engage your objective, situational awareness and the ability to think on your feet and react on the fly. Classic Halo tests all of these significantly greater than Reach or H4 as every one is on a level playing field due to having the same weapons and traits off spawn. Being able to select different loadouts with every spawn is not something a player can anticipate, and thus is a random element that further dilutes the mental aspect of the game.

At the end of the day, you're probably another spoiled kid that doesn't want to have to work to get kills but would rather have them handed to you on a silver platter through abuseable mechanics such as Active-Camo AAs and Perks. If that's really your spiel, I recommend you switch to militaristic squad base shooters such as CS, Battlefield or CoD instead as you're simply not gonna get it here. Team Fortress 2 might be more up your ally if you want something with Arena shooter elements to it.
 

ShockBolt21

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Feb 1, 2013
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At the end of the day, you're probably another spoiled kid that doesn't want to have to work to get kills but would rather have them handed to you on a silver platter through abuseable mechanics such as Active-Camo AAs and Perks.
Spoiled? Maybe. My first halo multiplayer experience was reach and 4, which gave me armor abilities that made it easier to create opportunities.

But I do work for my kills, and I prefer it that way. In Halo 4, I would finish my games with extremely high kill/death ratios. I mean incredibly high- sometimes I would go 20-3 game after game. If there was no skill gap, and kills were all derived from luck as you suggest, then I wouldn't score much better than anyone else in any given game, even if they were all noobs.
 
Dec 30, 2012
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Spoiled? Maybe. My first halo multiplayer experience was reach and 4, which gave me armor abilities that made it easier to create opportunities.

But I do work for my kills, and I prefer it that way. In Halo 4, I would finish my games with extremely high kill/death ratios. I mean incredibly high- sometimes I would go 20-3 game after game. If there was no skill gap, and kills were all derived from luck as you suggest, then I wouldn't score much better than anyone else in any given game, even if they were all noobs.

Where in same hell did I bring luck into this? When did I say there was no skill gap? Don't put words in my mouth kid.

It's not hard to go 20-3 when you're abusing a Camo AA and camping the whole damned game. Hell, when I get super sweaty I'll break similar k/ds from abusing the hell out of the Jet Pack, Sprint and playing super passive (avoiding direct confrontation). Thing is, these things break the balanced format of the game. Personal Loadouts are entirely outside of the scope of an opposing player's possible knowledge, and thus are essentially random elements that muddy the playing field. They don't add depth, the destroy it. Any half talented reject can rack up awesome k/d ratios by abusing these inherently imbalanced loadout options.

Here's a big kicker, I play better with AA's. They favor my playstyle, especially Jet Pack, as I can work the map in creative ways and control the engagements I want to be in. Yet! I prefer classic Halo that is free of such exploits. Why? Because it's fair, balanced, and has more depth because there's more mental game stemming from the fact there is no random factors involved (choosing loadouts is in essence a random factor, again, as opposing players have zero possible knowledge of it and the AA's aren't balanced with each other).

You DON'T work for you're kills. You are ABUSING an imbalance ability that was previously a POWER UP (item of high contention) to camp and pot shot other players. End of story.
 
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