Halo Thoughts on the Potential for a Scopeless BR as a Starting Weapon in Halo 5: Guardians

Psychoduck

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We don't know a lot about Halo 5: Guardians just yet, but we do know looks rather promising. We know that the game is aiming to return to Halo's roots as a competitive arena shooter. We know that even starts will finally be returning to the franchise and that map and weapon control will return as core elements of the experience. We also know that there will be eleven weapons appearing in the beta including a Battle Rifle equipped with a red dot sight, an Assault Rifle, a Designated Marksman Rifle, a Sub Machine Gun, a Sniper Rifle, an Energy Sword, and some sort of Rocket Propelled Grenade Launcher. This RDS-equipped BR is what I want to talk about today.

Starting weapons (the weapon(s) players spawn with) have always been a point of contention among Halo players. We know that in Halo, customization takes place in-game, on the battlefield rather than in pregame menus, at odds with the current trend of multiplayer FPSs. Knowing that even starts are returning, the question of what the primary starting weapon will be comes to mind. After giving this some thought, I began to realize that this BR RDS could make for an ideal starting weapon. An RDS-equipped weapon would have either minimal zoom functionality, or none at all. However, the BR is still a headshot weapon, meaning that it is much more skillful to use than an automatic weapon like the AR or SMG. This could make a great starting weapon as it is still skill-dependent, but does not have long range capabilities. This increases the incentive for players to customize how they play by picking up weapons on map such as the AR, SMG, and DMR as all three have these weapons have an advantage over a scopeless BR in certain scenarios. Incentive to attain non-power weapons in-game has been mostly absent since Halo 3 due to the starting weapons available in Halo: Reach and Halo 4.

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Let's look back at Halo's history of somewhat flawed starting weapons to get some context for why an RDS BR would be a better alternative. In Halo 2, the SMG was the primary starting weapon. This left players to engage at close to mid range off of spawn, creating incentive to attain weapons like the BR, Carbine, and other dual-wieldable weapons to bolster their effectiveness. However, there were two problems with the SMG as a starting weapon. First, it was not a headshot weapon, leaving a minimal skill gap in SMG battles. Second, the SMG was dual-wieldable meaning that players spent more time dual-wielding and less time throwing grenades and engaging at longer ranges. A large part of the community turned to the BR as a starting weapon instead, and this had several advantages but also left much less incentive for players to search for other pickups on maps aside from power weapons. Halo 3's solution to the SMG problem was to bring back the AR, but this weapon still had no real skill gap. Players again turned to the BR as a starting weapon.

In Halo: Reach, we had even bigger problems. The AR followed in the problematic footsteps of previous games, but when the community turned to the DMR as the starting weapon of choice, even larger issues emerged. The DMR's extreme range was enough to throw off the distance-based segmentation on most maps, and the weapon's inconsistent bloom was also rather frustrating. With a weapon with such long range capabilities at players' fingertips upon spawning, there was no incentive to attain other weapons except for power weapons. Halo 4 simply through all of these problematic starting weapons into the mix and allowed players to chose which one they wanted. Not only was this horribly balanced, it carried over all of the problems from the starting weapons in previous games and compounded on them.

The traditional Battle Rifle doesn't make for a poor choice for a starting weapon, however an RDS BR is arguably the better option. This weapon would limit the range of engagements, thus creating incentive to acquire pickups, while still maintaining a skill gap by giving players access to a headshot weapon off spawn. We'll have to see if this is 343i's plan for Halo 5, and if it is, I look forward to seeing how it plays out. While I am confident that this would be the ideal starting weapon for arena play, I am less sure about the effects it would have on larger scale engagements. We'll just have to wait and see.

It has come to my attention that this could be iron sights rather than a red dot sight, but the functionality will be the same either way.
 
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Jeebus

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I believe it could possibly be a very useful tool for the BR, my fear is this:

Could, and this is a big could, but COULD H5 bring "mods" into play? Not loadouts, but mods to weapons, like the RDS for the BR, or an extended mag for the AR? This is my fear, though it's more of a paranoia than an actual fear, just food for thought.
 
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a Chunk

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While having a wide variety of desirable pickups can add some spice to the game, having them be desirable simply because the starting weapon isn't effective enough is NOT good. The goal should be to have a starting weapon that is effective at all ranges, but inferior to each pickup within its optimal range.

A BR operating as you suggest would probably be reasonably effective at all ranges. It would also probably be inferior to most pickups within their optimal range.
I'd personally prefer the starting weapon to be single shot and difficult to aim accurately, but I think a red dot sight BR would be a decent alternative, and definitely better than what we had in some of the previous games.
 

theSpinCycle

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I don't think I would mind the idea much if it was executed; I just have a few concerns about it being executed poorly, like:

-Having a lamer RRR than a scoped BR
-Being slowed down when in RDS/ironsight (Frustrating fights with people running away outside of your unscoped RRR, anybody? Similar effect to sprint)
-Huge weapon (when in RDS/ironsight) blocking the bottom part of the screen, disadvantaging players on high ground (Imagine trying to shoot from BR3 to S3 on Lockout, scoped in, with your gun blocking most of top mid for example).

This is a beta build, so I wouldn't be too surprised if this BR skin turned out not to be final.


Slightly sidetracking: What will be the difference between AR/SMG?
 

Psychoduck

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Slightly sidetracking: What will be the difference between AR/SMG?

With no dual-wielding to separate them, I imagine there will be a few key differences. The SMG is bound to have a larger clip size, higher fire rate, less damage per shot, less accuracy, and more recoil (walking upwards when fired in long bursts). Meanwhile, the AR will have a smaller magazine and slower rate of fire, but be more accurate and have less recoil. In other words, the SMG would beat the AR at very close range, but the AR would win out in mid-range scenarios.
 

Sgt x Slaphead

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I had not thought about this too much but this is actually a huge issue with recent Halo games. Starting with a BR or DMR made all other weapons aside from power weapons almost useless. At the same time, starting with and SMG/AR takes out any skill in initial encounters and makes obtaining a long range rifle too advantageous on most maps. It is hard to come to conclusions about how one weapon should work without considering how the other weapons work alongside it.

I would be happy if the DMR had a fixed reticule size and worked more like the Carbine to get rid of the dumb bloom mechanic and define it's effective range as a little more than the BR but not to be too dominant at long range. Removing or reducing the zoom of the scope on the BR would help separate it from the DMR. The DMR must not be too accurate at long distances and more like the carbine to ensure we don't get Reach all over again. I also think it is important that the effective range of the AR is not a short as before and actually puts up a fight against the BR this time. With a tighter spread and less auto-aim the AR could be more skillful and less noob friendly than people are used to.

When burst fired and used well, I think the ideal AR should be able to take on a BR in a fair fight. The SMG can take on that role as a very effective CQC weapon. The reason the DMR was a problem in Reach was that it beat the other standard weapons in pretty much all cases. The way to balance these weapons is to avoid having too much variation in the effective ranges. The DMR shouldn't have too much more range over the BR and the BR should not have too much range over the AR. The problem in the past is that weapons other than these starting rifles have been pretty much useless at and range other than when you are touching each other but even then, precision rifles still tend to beat full-autos in CQC situations.

The BR will be a great starting weapon if it sits perfectly between these types of weapons being useful against them whilst giving incentive to try other weapons. I like the idea of it losing the zoom because it is the zoom that made it so distant from most of the other weapons.

Core Halo has been lacking the variety it deserves for quite some time because of the lack of incentive to control anything other than power weapons. Aside from the starting weapon we need those useful pickups aside from power weapons.
 

S0UL FLAME

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I have a feeling the RDS is just an aesthetic change to the boxy scope from Halo 4. I don't think they are going to decrease the zoom or the Red Reticule Range.
 

theSpinCycle

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I had not thought about this too much but this is actually a huge issue with recent Halo games. Starting with a BR or DMR made all other weapons aside from power weapons almost useless.

Why just recent Halo games? The utility weapons have been getting weaker and weaker -- starting with the slow(er) H2 BR, then the really random H3 BR, and finally the Reach DMR that, when shot more than once a year across the map, has the five-shot consistency of a goldfish playing chess. Are you talking about the mechanics of H4 (thinking this because you mentioned both the BR and DMR), or the last years?

The way to balance these weapons is to avoid having too much variation in the effective ranges.

IDRK about this. The H4 sandbox has problems with redundant weapons (for instance, the AR, Storm Rifle, and Suppressor fill near-identical roles; nobody [that I know at the least] picks up an AR and drops it for a Storm Rifle because of some minor perceived advantage), and the way to fix that is to increase the differences between the weapons or scrap them, not to make them all more similar.

Do we really need more similar weapons? I can understand the difference between a BR and an AR, but having four precision rifles (BR/DMR/Carbine/LR) and three automatic rifles (AR/Storm/Suppressor) all doing similar things is a bit much. The weapon rebalance was a step in the right direction for the BR, but not anywhere close enough. A scopeless BR would definitely make a big difference (and cause hordes of protesters to storm 343's office firing real rifles-- but that's a whole other issue I guess)

Core Halo has been lacking the variety it deserves for quite some time because of the lack of incentive to control anything other than power weapons. Aside from the starting weapon we need those useful pickups aside from power weapons.

Yes please.. but I'm a little confused here -- you said earlier that you wanted to reduce the variation between the starting weapons, but here that Halo needs more variety (I think I'm missing something).

Good post yo :)
 

BlazeDillon

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Starting with a BR or DMR made all other weapons aside from power weapons almost useless.

I don't believe this is the case. I think that it is because they failed to correctly execute the balance of nearly all of the other weapons roles. That on top of the map designs and ordinance lacking reason to go to areas where other weapons could be more useful.

It's all been done correctly before, 343 just needs to think about things a little more.

343s logic is that if you lower the amount of shots and lower the kiltime that the time in between shots, ranges it's useful, damage splash, bullet spread and just about any other way of balancing doesn't need to be changed. I mean, why not make a sniper that kills in 1 hit, well just make you be able to get it for doing good and to balance it out we will make it so you don't have half the amount of shots as a weapon you have to aim with! Balance. -_-

On another side of the topic Halo 2s balance was nice. SMG beat BR up close every time but lost at mid range where the carbine matched it and it lost to sniper at long.


Actually this sort of explains some of what I mean.

 
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Stevo

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Dec 31, 2012
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Only just seen this thread :eek:

I'm inclined to agree with the OP. It does appear to bring more balance to starting load outs, initial encounters and desires for alternate weapon pickups if the way 343 build the competitive maps match that of the previous games.

My point is this; H3 BR start worked brilliantly. The reason players kept a BR and rarely swapped it out is because the encounters changed dramatically and continually in every match. BR was effective at close and medium ranges and could suppress or kill at sustained long range combat. Removing a 2x magnification wouldn't hinder that.

However, Map design would.

If you took Countdown from H:R, removed the swords and shotguns, and gave players BR starts, with SMGs and ARs as weapon pickups... How many players would be using these predominantly over the BR? Encounters would all be close quarters to medium range... And the slight extra DPS between the BRs burst would make a difference.

Simply put; removing a scope shouldn't make a difference. It's the scenarios the player openly creates before combat ,that warrants what weapon is their most effective choice.