Lobby Recap Recap for CTG Lobby 12/4/13

[Psychoduck]

Post feedback for the following maps below:

• Panic Attack: Inversely symmetrical map with huge warthog jumps, played CTF and Extraction
• Excavation: Inversely symmetrical map with Mantises, played CTF and Extraction
• Wildfire: Symmetrical tug of war style map with ghosts, played CTF and Ricochet
• BTB Map Beta 01: Asymmetrical map on Impact, played Slayer
• Native: Inversely symmetrical BTB heavies map with scorpions, played Slayer and CTF
• QWOP: Asymmetrical urban map with rocket hogs, played CTF
• Shipwreck: Asymmetrical map built among wreckage and debris, played Slayer
• Abrasion: Asymmetrical map on Erosion, played CTF

Time allowing, I will post my feedback throughout the rest of the day. Thanks to everyone who came to the lobby, it was a lot of fun and we played some great maps. Let's get the feedback rolling!
ChewyNutCluster, Flying Shoe ILR, Great Mist, Jack Attaak, Master Debaytes. MockKnizzle, Squally DaBeanz, The Fated Fire, WhiteWolfLegend, Z3R0FLAME

 

[Great Mist]

I came, I saw, Shoe tried to boot me. He failed Also I was only able to play Panic Attack Fully and I have to say it was one of the hardest matches to play. Extraction is great for 6v6 while CTF wasn't as competitve more like a stalemate in the middle. I heard you talking about 5v5 being the best for CTF and well I can't say since I didn't play that one. Anyways I liked the map though I wish there was a Mongoose there for well A. Quick drop ins and getting out B. Shenanigans
best barrel roll driver on flat ground

 

[EmbarkingZeus]

I could only play Panic Attack fully, so I will only be able to give feedback for that map (Although Excavation was fun)
My biggest concern overall was spawning, I just found that I would spawn right in front of the opposing team and would get massacred.

CTF: Boy, that was a difficult match. I felt that we had one too many people on each team (5v5 CTF is the better size), so the map, to me, felt too crowded for 6v6 CTF. I also wish that the top floor was a little easier to get to from where the Hog spawned (I could make it, but with some difficulty) A Mongoose would also have helped with faster flag runs and would suit the part better that the Hog (the hogs need to stay, but the Mongoose is smaller and more nimble)

Extraction: That firing line at the end killed me, literally (Bad pun I know). I prefered Extraction over CTF on Panic Attack because I didn't feel as crowded, although the Extraction point in the dead center of the map was not my favorite, I felt there was too clear a sightline from the bases

Well, that's all the feedback I can think of at the moment, otherwise I loved it

 

[Master Debaytes]

Panic Attack

• As mentioned in game, CTF on this map holds a low scoring game on both teams' part, provided there isn't a heavy imbalance. I believe that's because the area in front of the base in the middle is very open (with the exception of the area around the warthog ramps). I know it'll look weird just sticking two pillars out in front of the base on both sides, and it'll be awkward for vehicles and the like, but it couldn't hurt to try it out for one round to see how it goes. Extraction, on the other hand, played great on this map. That middle site is hectic as hell (nades for days), but I loved it. Only issues I'm seeing with this map thus far is the CTF gameplay.

Excavation

• People in the lobby were hating on the mantises for whatever reason. I think they're fine on the map. Spawns were a little iffy this time around, but as you mentioned in the lobby you "don't know how to do spawns" so it's understandable I guess. It's my only complaint though.

Wildfire

• This one was interesting. The map had a very unconventional layout from what I'm used to but I liked the change in pace. I can't really say much about the game of Ricochet, since our team clearly knew what we were doing while the other team was left in the dark. My major concern was walking down the purple ramp on the opposite team's side of the map, and watching enemies spawn at the base of that ramp. It wasn't always the case of them spawning in next to their teammates. More often than not, they were just spawning over there right in front of me.

BTB Map Beta 01

• This map had some concerns, like the spawns for Blue team being heavily fixated in that one corner by the warthog spawn and that one soft kill boundary that was too low, but the major issue I saw was definitely the frame rate. It's just because there are too many Silos being using on this map. Even if it may not have the same effect, just substituting them with Colosseum Walls might be the way to go.

Native

• SQUALLY MADE A MAP WITH SCORPIONS! I still want to play the map with 8 vs 8 Slayer without the use of personal ordinance before I can make a good opinion about this map. However, from what I've seen, it played ok (despite the Hardlight Heroes). The CTF game played out a lot better than the slayer game (probably because we couldn't use our own loadouts anymore, and more so because we switched the teams around).

QWOP

• My team lost pretty bad in the CTF game, so I can't say whether or not I'm a fan of this one yet. I will comment though that the Rockethog dominated on this map, probably more so than it did on the other maps we played last night. I need to play it again to say more though.

Shipwreck

• From the last time I played this map, there have been some MAJOR improvements. This map was a blast to play on for Slayer. Whatever changes you made to the center made the difference because the hammer only works well if you use it along the sides of the map now. And, probably the best part about the changes, I didn't fall through the holes in the center of the map once!

Abrasion

• My god, this map just did not play well at all. Everything about this map needs work. The bases. The spawns. The kill zones (there were many areas where a soft kill should have been a hard kill). The line of sights (too open for the bottom base and too enclosed at the high base). Everything. Squally mentioned in game that he offered some advice on how this map could be improved and none of the changes were implemented from last time. My advice: take his advice, because this map needs A LOT of work to play right.

 

[Psychoduck]

Panic Attack

• This map played very competitively despite the low-scoring CTF game. Everything was contested and strategy and player skill were essential. There were absolutely some spawn problems in CTF, though. I'm going to do my best to fix these, although it's becoming clear that 5v5 is the ideal player count for this map. Still, it will play very nicely for 6v6 as well once some tweaks are made to spawning. It's very difficult to pull the flag, but that just means that it requires a lot of coordination. If you're pulling the flag out of the front of the base, you'd better be holding your outpost. The map punishes you for failing to control key locations. That said, 6v6 does make things a bit harder than they need to be. I'll be tweaking flag away spawning as well as moving the warthogs slightly forward to make the turret more accessible. I wouldn't count on having a random piece of cover added in front of the base as that would be very obstructive to vehicles. Again, if you're pulling from the front of the base, you should be holding your outpost. tweaks to spawning will make flag pulls way better. Extraction played quite nicely, the new locations for D and E were far better than the previous placement.

Excavation

• This map is playing better than ever. The mantises provide an interesting dynamic in how they can, if used effectively, lock down parts of the map. This was especially cool in Extraction. Luckily, there's plenty of tools at a team's disposal to counter the mantises. The rocket hogs were also brutally effective in the right hands. This is BTB heavies done right. Victory was decided by how effectively a team used its vehicles and how effectively it countered the enemy's. That said, infantry were still integral to the experience. This is a heavies map that actually balances the vehicles without just dumping power weapons on the infantry to compensate. Flag is about the same as ever. I've never been the biggest fan of the bases but they get the job done. Pulls are exciting and intense, and get very interesting when a mantis is involved. The new extraction setup is far better. I spent much of the Extraction game in the mantis, so my perspective was limited, but that effective use of the mantis to support offense and defense of the extraction sites was a major factor in the outcome of the game. I didn't personally notice any spawning problems, but it could be worth looking into.

Wildfire

• I would love to know why this map is named Wildfire, but whatever. This was the epitome of a tug of war map. It was incredibly punishing to the losing team. I'm normally not a fan of tug of war maps (Hekau), but this one provided enough options to players that I was able to enjoy it. The map feels a bit like a classic BTB map in some ways, which isn't a bad thing. Some of the flat, open ground and the rocks looked a bit tacky to me and I would deem some of the crates in front of the base to be lazy cover. That said, the map doesn't really suffer from the common flatness issues seen on many Forge Island maps, despite being fairly flat. The acid pit, as you predicted, provided some serious trolling opportunities and the routes through the center in general feel pretty good. They're segmented from each other just enough (the first version you showed me would have been a nightmare). There were some wonderful opportunities for ghost shenanigans also, which I demonstrated throughout the game. Ricochet both created some interesting opportunities on this map. The games boiled down to suppressing the enemy team and locking them down behind their base in order to score. There will be players who despise the gameplay created by this map for that reason, but that's how the map was intended to play. There were definitely some goofy spawns happening, though. Tinker around with your zones and make sure players aren't spawning right at the bottom of their purple ramp when the other team controls purple.

BTB Map Beta 01

• I think the two things to focus on right now are spawning and framerate. The map's geometry has improved significantly since I last saw it and, while there's still some quirks with it, I would rather hold judgement until spawning and framerate are improved. Both are dragging the overall experience on the map down currently. All of your silos, coliseum windows, the glass around the volcano, and some other objects are really hurting the framerate Try to cut down on object density and substitute out some of those silos and lass pieces. Currently, the spawning felt very random. When last i saw the map in forge, there were spawn points just scattered all over it. I would try to place them a bit more strategically and cut down on the total number of them as well. The way you have it set up currently is over-complicated. It may also be worth experimenting with some static team spawning. This will create more room for strategy in Slayer, as everything was a bit too organic and random. if you can get spawning and framerate fixed, it'll become much more easily to judge the maps geometry and overall layout. Keep up the good work, though. this has improved a lot since I last saw it.

Native

• Just as Excavation is BTB heavies done right, this is BTB heavies done wrong. We don't need a massive map with tons of flat, open space and long walks for infantry in order to support heavy vehicles. This was just a classic BTB map design shortcoming: vehicles drove around the ground level of the map and infantry stayed on the upper levels of the structures. Note how on Excavation, despite being very vehicle-centric, infantry are still a big part of the picture. On Excavation, the mantises could lock down parts of the map, but only if they stayed on their toes. They had to deal with infantry attacking from all sides. On this map, the scorpions could just sit in front of their bases and lock down their side of the map. An effective team could keep a scorpion alive the entire game, and a scorpion could completely cover the flat areas in front of the bases. The geometry of the structures that infantry were often confined too was uninteresting and unintuitive, without sensible ways to cross the map other than to jump down to the vehicle controlled bottom level. The infantry-vehicle balance was just frightfully poor, there was no interesting interaction between the two. The only time I can see myself getting any enjoyment from playing this map is while sitting in a scorpion. Some players won't mind this, as there is a community that likes this sort of heavies map, but judges alongside the other maps we played which included vehicles this map was a disappointment.

QWOP

• This game literally felt like it lasted for thirty seconds. I blinked and we lost, I have no idea what happened and I really can't give any feedback because of it.

Shipwreck

• Looking at this map from a Slayer perspective, i'd deem it done. The sniper rifle is a much better choice than the beam rifle. The awkward holes are all plugged and the changes made to the geometry over the last month or so have been great. I'd be interested to try playing some KOTH or Extraction on here. Those more mobile, organic objective variants would suite the nature of the map pretty well.

Abrasion

• While the bases are certainly much better than last time, there's still a lot of issues. The top of the map was barely used at all. Player movement up there was so restricted that it may as well have not been there at all. The lift from Red base is good, but there need to be more hard routes to get up there. There also needs to be more incentive to go up there in the form of power weapons and positions that will actually affect the CTF game. The teleporters taking you to the bottom of the map from the bases didn't really help much, although I could see them being somewhat useful for flag pulls. You guys need to focus on integrating the top of the map into the game much more. Oasis Hurler

 

[Oasis Hurler]

I got to the lobby between qwop and shipwrecked, I also didn't sign up on Halo customs.
Jonny is about ready to move to a new map, he's reworked Abrasion four times each time limiting sight lines,
and trying to implement suggestions from friends, if he's willing to try again I'll ask Squally to consult.

Who knows, I've seen Jonny take maps and turn them around before.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[The Fated Fire]

Panic Attack

• Very competitive arena map with vehicle combat. Optimal player count is 5v5 as 6v6 adds just a tad too much chaos and limits opportunities for flag movement. Several testers last night suggested to add cover between the bases and outposts but it is an unnecessary change. The danger level of the space between the base and outpost is situational. Dependent on both flag movement and power position control.

Excavation

• This map had a very refined balance between heavy vehicles and infantry combat. As a small team competitive player, maps like Excavation that empower players against both enemy infantry and vehicles through multiple function geometry and subtle changes in height variation across the map creates an ideal experience. I did have several situations where I got caught on awkward geometry at the base of your lifts near each sniper. The ramp sticks out towards the outer wall of the map, providing only one clean (walking) route into the lift. Players coming from the base walking or sprinting around that corner often times would get caught on the lift ramp -- an especially frustrating experience when trying to move the flag.

Wildfire

• Wildfire is designed to create a very linear and tug of war objective experience, and it played like it. Once the flag got to the bridge it took a ton of teamwork and player sacrifice just to move the flag a few feet. Teams faced off against each other in groups along several of the linear routes from base to base. Testers brought up some issues with spawning that I plan to address immediately. I had originally created negative spawn weightings on the far side and back of each base in an attempt to force more close side and inside base spawns, but instead the negative weighting pushed player spawns forward towards purple. I plan to weaken the negative spawn weightings around the base and place an additional anti-respawn zone weak at the bottom purple ramp spawns.

Native

• The large rock hills that segmented the map created random gameplay. There was no way to predict player or vehicle movement on either side of those humps. Vehicles were too dominant on the lower levels which limited infantry movement and forced players to cling to the high ground.

QWOP

• Massive amounts of segmentation and limited player movement options created helpless situations once the flag carrier got inside a warthog. I'm a terrible warthog driver and I was able to transport my flag carrier from stand to stand for the most part uncontested 3 times. It seemed there was a rocket hog placed very close to the flag stand as well, leading to quick uncontested escapes.

Shipwreck

• I love this map for Team Slayer. Very dynamic organic environment that empowers players through geometry and rewards those with extensive map knowledge. Shipwreck has a unique balance of interactive geometry, segmentation and long lines of sight that allows for players to outsmart enemies and gain the upper hand on vehicles.

 

[RogerDodger]

Below are the maps I've played. I will record my observations and suggestions for each, separately. All of the maps have been my first time playing them.

Panic Attack:
Observations: Extraction was my favorite gametype on the map. Symmetry allowed for both teams to have varying levels of ownership/risk, which made 2-site ever more interesting. CTF was designed well, but suffered from an entrenched struggle to get the flag out of hordes of defenders. As we agreed upon, it was probably spawning that caused this anomaly, and the extra two/four players didn't help either. Again, maybe it was because of the aforementioned issues, but the atrium for both sides may be a bit too "open" towards the center. Otherwise, structurally sound in all ways, and everything else was great.
Suggestions: Experiment with the respawn zones a bit more, and I'm sure you'll get it just right. As Squally suggested to you guys at the end of the lobby, I would at least consider adding some cover near the vehicle jumps. Exactly what type is debatable, but probably something that cuts sight lines from the high ground "sniper" on one side to the low ground "sneak" route on the other.

Excavation:
Observations: The concentric vehicle track with the inverse height variations was impressive in how it used the space it was given. Each vehicle had its own niche to play, although the Ghost seemed a bit marginalized with the Rocket Hog and Mantis destroying it in a blink. The center atrium has that nice vehicle access, but in doing so the infantry gameplay was more rudimentary closer to the center. Both vehicles and infantry really interacted well, though. I especially like that in both game modes, infantry were able to brave the hell of vehicle firepower and maintain that ease of movement that you'd see in a non-vehicle map.
Suggestions: As to not mention them redundantly, I think the plasma pistols should be more easily noticeable. Honestly, I couldn't find them for a couple minutes. Also, the Spartan Laser shouldn't spawn on the central site in Extraction. Could you also lower the spawn time for the Ghosts? I'm not sure what it is right now, but I found 60 to be optimal.

Wildfire:
Observations: I am not a fan of "tug-of-war" style maps, nor am I versed in concocting them. If it were my map, I could see the potential in it being something totally different. For now though, I will withhold too many suggestions. My greatest love of all in this map was the base structures - they offered a lot of options for both defense and offense, and their spawning was well-constructed to rat out intruders. The Ghost paths were good fun too, and allowed for easy movement and shenanigans as Duck had iterated. After that though, the good train comes to a stop for me. First, teleporters should be removed. That's one reason why purple bridge was so contested for flag runs, which seemed endless. Second, the man cannons on top of the base should be redirected to a less desirable and more neutral location, like the dead center. Both of these issues could correct flow problems towards purple. Structurally speaking, there was a good amount of lazy cover and exploitation of elevations on top of the rock arrays. Having the Snipers around compounded on that issue. As I began with, I'm not sure how the author would like to approach these observations, so I will end here.
EDIT: Also, bases should not be able to shoot at one another.

BTB Map Beta 01:
Observations: This has been the map's first test since the major overhaul on the structures of the map. Two top issues came to the forefront, spawning and framerate. I've concluded that I don't experience framerate issues on my 360, so I apologize for my obliviousness to this. Although the dynamic lighting was turned off on plenty of items, the geometry still caused plenty of lag. I think that replacing my exterior Silo 3 barriers with colly walls, and some unnecessary Silos/glass to solid blocks, will help resolve it. Honestly I'd like to overhaul the aesthetic theme of the map itself, but I'm at a loss for what to convert it to.
With regard to spawning, both teams experienced issues that have already been discussed above. I'm split on whether to take a dynamic or static spawning approach. The former is more fair since Blue Base is at a higher elevation, and the later is more capable of controlling the hectic feel. Making some more "safe spawn" regions would be optimal, anyways. Otherwise, I was pleased at how the structural overhaul paid off. It's definitely a step in the right direction.

Native:
Observations: I would just second everything Duck said. It was top-heavy and fairly straight-line with how the power positions were set up, for the most part. To accommodate the Scorpions, there was simply too much given up on the map's structural potential.
Suggestions: To take it one step at a time, I would really focus on how the Scorpion interacts with infantry and other vehicles. What will probably end up happening is a restriction in the tank's domain, and an increase in the availability to take it down. Also consider: neutral Scorpion or one per team? If it's the former, then reworking the map so that it has more like a single line of symmetry, may be the way to go. I have a pretty easy suggestion for the latter, though. There were times where both tanks were assumed under enemy control. Why not put them on team-specific vehicle pads? That way, there's no question that something like that can occur.

Those were all the maps I've played. I'll make sure to attend the next one of these for sure.

 

[Jack Attaak]

Panic Attack:
CTF was really tough on this one, probably at least partially due to how crazy it was with 6v6. Things tended toward a stalemate, and I think (although it's been argued both ways) that some kind of decorative bracing or something similar across the center could help drag the action out of the bases.
Extraction was much more successful, and the center felt better utilized, although it suffered from the same cover issues that others have pointed out.
On a side note, I think some traffic cones on top of the jumps would help indicate the gap, which isn't immediately apparent at first.

Excavation:
This one had just the right amount of chaos. The mantises felt balanced in close quarters, and the rocket hogs' long driving circuit weighed nicely against shorter sight lines for the gunner, which kept things moving. The cave was a great thematic choice and made player orientation instantaneous, however the geometry inside felt a little awkward, especially where rocks met blocks. I second what's been said about making the anti-vehicle weapons more easy to find, but I also remember the map playing well without anyone picking up the Splaser, so that could be reevaluated.

Wildfire:
Wildfire felt retro, but not necessarily in a good way. The aesthetics were a bit tacky, sight lines were ridiculously long, and the inclusion of teleporters and mancannons underscored the need for more than three routes (acid pit, center, and purple pile). Of course, the lack of radar didn't help any. Despite these shortcomings, I thought the bases were well-designed, and the acid pit/cave area was a very fun encounter space.

BTB Map Beta:
I personally didn't have any framerate issues on this map, but I could definitely understand how the use of prefab silos would affect FRL. From an aesthetic standpoint, replacing some of those silos with Forged structures wouldn't hurt, though. If you're looking for a different theme that would make sense with a lot of tall, individual structures, a military outpost with large turrets, lookout towers, or landing pads might add some more variety. Gameplay-wise, I though the high and low ground were balanced effectively, and aside from spawning, the map is headed in the right direction

I didn't get a chance to play the last three maps in line, but based on what's been said, I definitely want to check out Shipwreck!

 

[Squally DaBeanz]

Panic Attack: This map is slowly playing better and better. The biggest problem I see so far is the team size (5V5 is preferable), and the spawning. The flag away zones shouldn't include any spawns in or in the immediate area of the base. I feel player should have to fight back into their base if their flag gets taken (I saw three people spawn right in front of me in the rocks when I grabbed the flag.). As for the bases themselves, I feel like the slide jump inside could be just a TINY bit easier, mainly because of the awkward angle they're placed at. Perhaps lowering the structure by 0.1, and adding a third incline facing the front doorway could help. There have been numerous instances of trying to slide jump up the platform, and just barely missing it due to the awkward angle, or getting shot mid slide.

Also, at least entertain the idea of a small piece of cover in the courtyard of each base. It doesn't have to be anything major, just a small fin or something. What I have in mind is the tip of a Y-Cross on the corner of the main hog jump. Vehicle pathing would hardly be impacted in any meaningful way, and the cover would only work on a single axis and sightline. This would only provide a moment to breathe while approaching or exiting the base, and wouldn't last long or break any flag runs.

Pretty pictures:




Excavation: This map was extremely fun. The ugly lag monster showing it's face hindered some moments, but I enjoyed it overall. As others have said, there are a few messy corners with the geometry, usually having to deal with ramps. The ramp up into the lift, as well as the ramp leading up to the platform behind the lift were the most troublesome to me. Aside from this, the biggest problem I can see at this point is, again, spawning. The flag away spawns suffer the same problem as Panic Attack. Players will spawn inside and in the immediate area of the bases once the flag is pulled, making flag runs out of the bases extremely difficult. Fix these, and you should be golden

Personal nitpick time: Could you maybe put the Plasma Pistol in a more obvious spot? It took forever to find when just playing the map without memorizing everything beforehand.

Wildfire: I would love to know why this map is named Wildf- Oh wait, never mind. Ok, real talk. The map is REALLY fun. There are some aspects of the original that I liked a little better (the presence of the acid pit, for example), but it's still great. One complaint I have is the ankle high ledges on the floor under Purple. They're just annoying and get in the way. Smooth it out please?

Also, I feel like the teleporter exits could be placed in more useful locations. Not sure where you COULD put them, but coming out at the bottom of the bridge seems a little pointless. OH, and Ricochet. Personally, I think Ricochet could play great IF it were regular 4V4 size without any vehicles. Not that it didn't work the way we had it, it just felt really wrong and trolly. Still, the map is looking good. Keep up the changes you see fit.

BTB Map Beta 01: Honestly, this map was REALLY confusing for a first game. I know the problems of framerate and spawning have been brought up, (and I'll reemphasize those as well. They need to be fixed), but I felt the map geometry itself could be better as well. To me, it felt like a lot of random structures places on the asteroid. There wasn't any real coherence to it all. There were also a lot of "dead end" spots, or useless structures. Some notable examples I ran into a lot were the wall in front of the glass blocking the lava near the top (another framerate culprit), the platform with a large ramp leading up to it with no real structure (I think it was near blue side), and the small balcony that didn't lead anywhere (it had base stripes as railing, and sat between the last two spots I mentioned). Spots like this don't really help with map flow at all. I may have to take another look around at the map since I was confined to one corner the whole time, but the general layout feels a little random at this point.

Native: V4 reforge incoming. Please hold.

QWOP: Well, I feel that this map very strongly shows the potential of- oh hey, we won.
Ya.... I didn't really have any time to look around at the map, so I can't say much. From what I saw, the map feels like it's a pseudo symmetrical urban map with clearly defined vehicle paths and interior infantry areas between it all... Is that right? It sounds right. It didn't feel like anything was horribly wrong at this time, so I'd have to play it a few more times (hopefully with longer games).

Shipwreck: I didn't get to go to space
I'm not sure WHAT changes you made, but everyone is saying you made changes... and apparently, it worked. This is the most fun I've had on this map yet. The routes are clear, the power positions are defined, movement is easy, everything flows well, and I didn't fall into any butt cracks on the map that lead to the watery grave below. I'd say slayer is done for this one. I'd have to play more CTF and stuff, but I'm loving this map. Much unique. Such crash. Many funs. Wow.

Abrasion: Oh boy... Jonny, my boy, I think you have some serious work to do here. The current iterations of the bases isn't even close to what I have in mind when I said to simplify them. They're just a few hallways inside of a big flat wall on the edges of the map. Not only is this super simplistic and campable, but all the entrances are right next to each other on the same axis. There's no way to flank the bases, or try different approaches. It's always the same thing. Also, the areas in front of the bases are just cluttered with lazy cover. Again, not what I had in mind when I said there shouldn't be wide open fields in front of the bases. This in combination with the new base design has created a serious problem for CTF. There's no way to exit the base without immediately being seen by people camping higher ground looking on the bases, and there's no way to escape those people. Pulling flags becomes nearly impossible.

Also, The top area of the map is pretty much useless right now. It's so far away from everything and so disconnected in terms of flow, it feels like it's not even there most of the time. There needs to be more reason to go up there.

My main suggestions for this map: First, I would just start over (don't freak, let me explain). I feel like you keep trying to cling to certain aspects or buildings of the previous versions, and then build changes around them. So much has been changed about this map already, that there's really no point in doing that anymore. It would be easier to redesign everything from the ground up. When you do redesign it, there are some key things I feel you should focus on. First, bring the bases closer to the prefab tower slightly, and push them closer to the uphill ridge These bases also need to feel like actual buildings, and have flanking routes and multiple entrances all around (just not too many). Second, make a third structure that is just as prominent as a base up on the hill, but not too far away from the other two bases. This would incentivize people to go up there more. Third, make the middle structure attached to the prefab building a little bigger and more of a viable play space. Right now, it just feels like it's there to take up space. Fourth, break up the tunnel made from the prefab building so it's not just a straight line, but still make it the most dangerous path between the two bases.

/rantover

 

[RogerDodger]

It's good that we have consistency with regard to most of our observations. One thing that I guess we're split on is the cover on Panic Attack.
What is the exact problem spot/sight lines that has come to be controversial?
What are the constraints by placing cover to resolve that issue?
To what degree does the trade-off take place?
If the controversial spot isn't influenced by cover, what will remedy the situation?