Halo New Weapon Buff Thoughts?

FatThe2nd

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Feb 7, 2013
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So, I'm sure some of you have heard about 343 testing weapon buffs. 343 said they are testing out a 4-shot BR and a 7 (or 6, i forgot :p) shot CC. I haven't heard anything about the LR being buffed, and the DMR is staying just as it is.

Personally, I think this is a great idea and will stop people from complaining. I especially like the CC buff. What are your thoughts?






The following addresses every Primary Loadout weapon, and the proposed changes suggested by Bravo.

DMR: is the basis of comparison, since it appears to be the only weapon left untouched. Its Time To Kill (TTK) is 1.47 seconds. Remember that the lower TTK, the faster a weapon kills, and visa-versa.

BR: It's at something around 1.87 seconds in my calculations (trust me, bursts are complicated), although in practice it seems relatively close to the DMR. Making it a 4-burst kill brings this value quite lower than the DMR by about -0.2 seconds. The small fraction of time difference is accounted for by burst spread, which will make the BR fill its niche as a mid-range gun. However, it could also make this gun overly powerful unless it'll kill on the last bullet of the 4th burst, and/or they increase the delay time between shots.

Covenant Carbine (CC): Currently a flat +0.2 more than the DMR. Reducing the shots-to-kill to 7, yields a -0.7 difference in TTK. This is in agreement with the "reward" in which Bravo was speaking of.

Light Rifle: Won't change any damage values, but rather make the auto-aim more similar to the BR. You may have had an experience in which the LR doesn't shoot on-target. This will surely fix it.

NOW, this is the extent of where Bravo ends. He says that there also must be increases in the damage of the automatics (AR, SR, Supp.). It is also worth noting that he claim the automatics should have higher TTKs to compensate in a loss for accuracy, somthing that has been previously overlooked by 343. I will break down the prefered method of changing these damage ratios, as well as differentiation of the current weaponry.

Assault Rifle AND Storm Rifle
Currently at 1.50 sec. Takes 16 shots to kill (10 shield shots, 6 body/head shots). Each shot reduce also reduces the TTK by 0.1 . Therefore, the best option would be to make them both take only 14 shots to kill, resulting in a 1.30 TTK, or a -1.7 second difference from the DMR. Here's where it gets interesting, since the AR is not only more accurate than the SR, but has more ammo. I will suggest two possibilities that balance these weapons out.

AR:
8 shield shots, 6 body shots;
Keep the 32-round magazine;
SR:
6 shield shots, 8 body shots.
Shrink the effective magazine (before overheating) from an awkward 16% for 27 rounds to 20% for 20 rounds.

This creates two different niches for these automatics. The AR is reserved for your typical infantry killing and has more consistency. SR, already having poor consistency at range, gains a benefit as a seige weapon. You will be able to down shields faster, but without other tools or teamates at your disposal the weapon looses effectiveness.


That being said, where does that leave the Suppressor?

Well, one of the main benefits of the Suppressor is its huge 48-round magazine. Currently, it takes 19 shots (12 shield, 7 body/head) to kill someone. Seems poor, but when you account for the 900 RPM (150% of both the AR and SR) its TTK is already at 1.20 seconds, a good deal less than the DMR. But now that the Supp. has both automatic weapons to contend with (they only are +0.1 ahead), and the accuracy drop, there has to be another route that it can follow... right?

Strikingly, no. Consider this - at 19 shot-to-kill, assuming each one hits (unlikely), the Supp. fetches itself two kills pretty easily. What would really make this shine above the other contestants, would be the ability to kill three people with one clip. Guess what, the answer is right under our noses.

While disturbing the TKK difference previously given to the Supp. from the original -0.2 to -0.3 (making it more powerful in comparison than before), we can give it 16 shots/kill (12 shield, 4 body to offset the higher TTK). Divide 48 by 16, and PRESTO. Exactly 3 kills. Now if 343 wanted to, they could throw in a few grace bullets in the magazine. But at this point, any type of residual damage outside of the 48 bullets required simpy widens the margin of error that the Supp. wielder can take (i.e. grenades, fall damage, etc.)

Credit goes to ZeroFlame.
 

Tomtris

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Feb 1, 2013
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So, I'm sure some of you have heard about 343 testing weapon buffs. 343 said they are testing out a 4-shot BR and a 7 (or 6, i forgot :p) shot CC. I haven't heard anything about the LR being buffed, and the DMR is staying just as it is.

Personally, I think this is a great idea and will stop people from complaining. I especially like the CC buff. What are your thoughts?

To stop Complaining, they would need to fix ALOT more than just the DMR.

But no, Im happy to see buffing to weapons, that combat the DMR.
 
Feb 1, 2013
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im sick of people complaining
the people that complain r not the halo community
the people that go to pax and E3 that cheer for everything
are the halo community.
u can say the DMR is overpowered and if it dosnt get fixed
maybe say it again if u really want it to get nerfed
and some people will go much further and rant every game
but it gets to a point were its just ridiculous so STOP COMPLAINING
by the way im not talking to about u TOMTRIS or FATTHE2ND
 
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The7thSeal

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im sick of people complaining
the people that complain r not the halo community
the people that go to pax and E3 that cheer for everything
are the halo community.
I think you've confused community with fan boys. The community are allowed to complain, it's their prerogative (though constructive criticism is more helpful). A fan boy, on the other hand will completely gloss over any and all problems with the game, and praise it blindly. Also, and this is 'first-thing-in-the-morning' me talking, are you insinuating that I'm not part of the Halo Community because I don't go to PAX and E3?

Anyway, I'm kind of happy to see something being done to balance weapons. It may even cut down on the amount of DMRs I run across throughout MM.
 

Tomtris

Master
Feb 1, 2013
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im sick of people complaining
the people that complain r not the halo community
the people that go to pax and E3 that cheer for everything
are the halo community.
u can say the DMR is overpowered and if it dosnt get fixed
maybe say it again if u really want it to get nerfed
and some people will go much further and rant every game
but it gets to a point were its just ridiculous so STOP COMPLAINING
by the way im not talking to about u TOMTRIS or FATTHE2ND

Woah woah woah.

The People that complain are fans, that see things that need to be changed,.
The People the DON'T complain, are fanboys.

If you don't complain, NOTHING will be changed, and we will not have had the DMR nerfed in the first place.
We wouldn't have gotten Forge Island, and we wouldn't have gotten the "X" system.
As a Consumer, I best Damn Well Complain, if a game I spent $560 Dollars on (You read that right), is WORSE then is predecessors
 

Rev Righteous

Proficient
I think the buffs are a great idea; I personally like the CC and Light Rifle, but can never justify using them in most Match-making games so I welcome a buff on their part. Also, from what I have read, the auto rifles boost is being offset buy a reduction in their aim-assist, making them less effective on full spray at medium range (not that they were super strong in that regard anyway, so not a bad trade off in my opinion)

To me one of the unique things about the Halo series was the all the weapons had a fairly distinct battlefield role. There was the BR and CC for long range precision (and still strong at close range when used right,) the AR for mid to close auto fire, the shotgun for close, and sniper for long to extreme range. I personally use the DMR all the time and like it; let's face it the sonic crack and meaty punch of the DMR is super satisfying. But in Halo 4 it breaks the unique weapon role system, as you can head shot people at any range close to extreme. When I get in a mid-range or close-range situation, I don't find myself wishing I had brought my AR or BR, I get by just fine with the DMR. For the Covenant weapons, they always had the role of striping shields faster than the human weapons, but I don't find that to be very useful in 4. I feel like the storm rifle is too wild and overheats too quick for me to strip a shield then switch to pistol or rifle to finish off my opponent. Such a tactic is the very reason for the gun's existence, but it's pointless to do a complicated controlled pulsing of the weapon, manage its heat, then quickly switch for the killshot when the other guy can just shoot 5 or 6 shots with the DMR and reliably kill me.

So I think they may still need to slightly nerf the DMR, but either way a boost to the other weapons is very welcome.
 
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Feb 1, 2013
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Woah woah woah.

The People that complain are fans, that see things that need to be changed,.
The People the DON'T complain, are fanboys.

If you don't complain, NOTHING will be changed, and we will not have had the DMR nerfed in the first place.
We wouldn't have gotten Forge Island, and we wouldn't have gotten the "X" system.
As a Consumer, I best Damn Well Complain, if a game I spent $560 Dollars on (You read that right), is WORSE then is predecessors
k but some people do complain to much and its really freaking annoying
also i have the xbox aswell
 

Psychoduck

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Dec 23, 2012
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I personally use the DMR all the time and like it; let's face it the sonic crack and meaty punch of the DMR is super satisfying. But in Halo 4 it breaks the unique weapon role system, as you can head shot people at any range close to extreme. When I get in a mid-range or close-range situation, I don't find myself wishing I had brought my AR or BR, I get by just fine with the DMR.

So I think they may still need to slightly nerf the DMR, but either way a boost to the other weapons is very welcome.

I couldn't agree more. Halo 4 introduces a would-be compelling system allowing players to chose the weapons they bring into the game and by extension play the game how they want. Unfortunately this doesn't work so well when one weapon trumps all others in the majority of situations. There's no denying the DMR is satisfying to use (who doesn't like cracking heads at such long range with such precision?), and for this reason 343i seems hesitant to nerf the weapon as it would upset many. The fact remains that nerfing the DMR would make a lot more sense than trying to buff all of the other weapons in the sandbox (which changes the entire sandbox as opposed to just a single element and will likely lead to other balancing issues). Frankly, the DMR's ability to engage at such long range as a starting weapon proves time and time again to be a detriment to the quality of the combat in the game, Ragnarok being a prime example of this. Sure, maps can be designed around it, but it honestly makes a lot more sense to me to have the weapons range and effectiveness all varying around a point more in line with where they were in Halo 3. Still, I won't say I'm too disappointed with the decision to buff the other weapons, as something clearly needed to be done. This isn't the best case scenario, but it's a decent alternative.

The other elephant in the room as far as Halo 4's sandbox (in my mind at least) has been the problems caused by players having the ability to spawn with plasma pistols and plasma grenades in gametypes/maps supporting vehicles. this is something which has been a huge detriment to vehicle gameplay since day one. Not only are vehicles now much easier to kill without applying strategy or skill towards taking them down, but players can spawn with the means to destroy them rather than having to seek out powerful weapons with which to do so (eliminating risk vs reward and the encouragement for player movement). Again, it's good to hear that the warthog turret is being buffed, but this again avoids the issue. Warthogs aren't under-powered because their turrets are too weak, they're under-powered because everyone spawns with a cheap and easy means to take them out. It's a simple principle commonly understood by forgers of competitive maps: if the weapons on the map are too powerful, don't attempt to counter them by putting more powerful weapons on the map (it may fix the issue in a short-sighted sense, but ultimately causes even more problems), but instead reduce the amount of powerful weapons/trade the powerful weapons out for slightly weaker ones. Adding more plates just makes them harder to juggle.

Overall, each of these areas undoubtedly needed to be adjusted, however, 343i is taking what I would consider to be the short-sighted route in fixing them. I appreciate the fact that they have taken notice of, and are taking action to fix these problems with the games sandbox. However, I feel that there are much better alternatives in both cases.
 

FatThe2nd

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Feb 7, 2013
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Personally, I just want MM to become more... casual. I want to run into a bunch of automatics, with random lights of purple and orange shooting all across the map. I want to be able to spam the hell outta my CC and take down 'em BRs and DMRs

Oh, by the way, good luck to the people in the Central, I hope you all are safe.
 

RogerDodger

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Jan 20, 2013
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The following addresses every Primary Loadout weapon, and the proposed changes suggested by Bravo.

DMR: is the basis of comparison, since it appears to be the only weapon left untouched. Its Time To Kill (TTK) is 1.47 seconds. Remember that the lower TTK, the faster a weapon kills, and visa-versa.

BR: It's at something around 1.87 seconds in my calculations (trust me, bursts are complicated), although in practice it seems relatively close to the DMR. Making it a 4-burst kill brings this value quite lower than the DMR by about -0.2 seconds. The small fraction of time difference is accounted for by burst spread, which will make the BR fill its niche as a mid-range gun. However, it could also make this gun overly powerful unless it'll kill on the last bullet of the 4th burst, and/or they increase the delay time between shots.

Covenant Carbine (CC): Currently a flat +0.2 more than the DMR. Reducing the shots-to-kill to 7, yields a -0.7 difference in TTK. This is in agreement with the "reward" in which Bravo was speaking of.

Light Rifle: Won't change any damage values, but rather make the auto-aim more similar to the BR. You may have had an experience in which the LR doesn't shoot on-target. This will surely fix it.

NOW, this is the extent of where Bravo ends. He says that there also must be increases in the damage of the automatics (AR, SR, Supp.). It is also worth noting that he claim the automatics should have higher TTKs to compensate in a loss for accuracy, somthing that has been previously overlooked by 343. I will break down the prefered method of changing these damage ratios, as well as differentiation of the current weaponry.

Assault Rifle AND Storm Rifle
Currently at 1.50 sec. Takes 16 shots to kill (10 shield shots, 6 body/head shots). Each shot reduce also reduces the TTK by 0.1 . Therefore, the best option would be to make them both take only 14 shots to kill, resulting in a 1.30 TTK, or a -1.7 second difference from the DMR. Here's where it gets interesting, since the AR is not only more accurate than the SR, but has more ammo. I will suggest two possibilities that balance these weapons out.

AR:
8 shield shots, 6 body shots;
Keep the 32-round magazine;
SR:
6 shield shots, 8 body shots.
Shrink the effective magazine (before overheating) from an awkward 16% for 27 rounds to 20% for 20 rounds.

This creates two different niches for these automatics. The AR is reserved for your typical infantry killing and has more consistency. SR, already having poor consistency at range, gains a benefit as a seige weapon. You will be able to down shields faster, but without other tools or teamates at your disposal the weapon looses effectiveness.


That being said, where does that leave the Suppressor?

Well, one of the main benefits of the Suppressor is its huge 48-round magazine. Currently, it takes 19 shots (12 shield, 7 body/head) to kill someone. Seems poor, but when you account for the 900 RPM (150% of both the AR and SR) its TTK is already at 1.20 seconds, a good deal less than the DMR. But now that the Supp. has both automatic weapons to contend with (they only are +0.1 ahead), and the accuracy drop, there has to be another route that it can follow... right?

Strikingly, no. Consider this - at 19 shot-to-kill, assuming each one hits (unlikely), the Supp. fetches itself two kills pretty easily. What would really make this shine above the other contestants, would be the ability to kill three people with one clip. Guess what, the answer is right under our noses.

While disturbing the TKK difference previously given to the Supp. from the original -0.2 to -0.3 (making it more powerful in comparison than before), we can give it 16 shots/kill (12 shield, 4 body to offset the higher TTK). Divide 48 by 16, and PRESTO. Exactly 3 kills. Now if 343 wanted to, they could throw in a few grace bullets in the magazine. But at this point, any type of residual damage outside of the 48 bullets required simpy widens the margin of error that the Supp. wielder can take (i.e. grenades, fall damage, etc.)

Phew! That covers everything. I'm probably going to post this onto 343's website to give them some insight. Thanks for reading this far, anyways.
 

FatThe2nd

Proficient
Feb 7, 2013
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He
The following addresses every Primary Loadout weapon, and the proposed changes suggested by Bravo.

DMR: is the basis of comparison, since it appears to be the only weapon left untouched. Its Time To Kill (TTK) is 1.47 seconds. Remember that the lower TTK, the faster a weapon kills, and visa-versa.

BR: It's at something around 1.87 seconds in my calculations (trust me, bursts are complicated), although in practice it seems relatively close to the DMR. Making it a 4-burst kill brings this value quite lower than the DMR by about -0.2 seconds. The small fraction of time difference is accounted for by burst spread, which will make the BR fill its niche as a mid-range gun. However, it could also make this gun overly powerful unless it'll kill on the last bullet of the 4th burst, and/or they increase the delay time between shots.

Covenant Carbine (CC): Currently a flat +0.2 more than the DMR. Reducing the shots-to-kill to 7, yields a -0.7 difference in TTK. This is in agreement with the "reward" in which Bravo was speaking of.

Light Rifle: Won't change any damage values, but rather make the auto-aim more similar to the BR. You may have had an experience in which the LR doesn't shoot on-target. This will surely fix it.

NOW, this is the extent of where Bravo ends. He says that there also must be increases in the damage of the automatics (AR, SR, Supp.). It is also worth noting that he claim the automatics should have higher TTKs to compensate in a loss for accuracy, somthing that has been previously overlooked by 343. I will break down the prefered method of changing these damage ratios, as well as differentiation of the current weaponry.

Assault Rifle AND Storm Rifle
Currently at 1.50 sec. Takes 16 shots to kill (10 shield shots, 6 body/head shots). Each shot reduce also reduces the TTK by 0.1 . Therefore, the best option would be to make them both take only 14 shots to kill, resulting in a 1.30 TTK, or a -1.7 second difference from the DMR. Here's where it gets interesting, since the AR is not only more accurate than the SR, but has more ammo. I will suggest two possibilities that balance these weapons out.

AR:
8 shield shots, 6 body shots;
Keep the 32-round magazine;
SR:
6 shield shots, 8 body shots.
Shrink the effective magazine (before overheating) from an awkward 16% for 27 rounds to 20% for 20 rounds.

This creates two different niches for these automatics. The AR is reserved for your typical infantry killing and has more consistency. SR, already having poor consistency at range, gains a benefit as a seige weapon. You will be able to down shields faster, but without other tools or teamates at your disposal the weapon looses effectiveness.


That being said, where does that leave the Suppressor?

Well, one of the main benefits of the Suppressor is its huge 48-round magazine. Currently, it takes 19 shots (12 shield, 7 body/head) to kill someone. Seems poor, but when you account for the 900 RPM (150% of both the AR and SR) its TTK is already at 1.20 seconds, a good deal less than the DMR. But now that the Supp. has both automatic weapons to contend with (they only are +0.1 ahead), and the accuracy drop, there has to be another route that it can follow... right?

Strikingly, no. Consider this - at 19 shot-to-kill, assuming each one hits (unlikely), the Supp. fetches itself two kills pretty easily. What would really make this shine above the other contestants, would be the ability to kill three people with one clip. Guess what, the answer is right under our noses.

While disturbing the TKK difference previously given to the Supp. from the original -0.2 to -0.3 (making it more powerful in comparison than before), we can give it 16 shots/kill (12 shield, 4 body to offset the higher TTK). Divide 48 by 16, and PRESTO. Exactly 3 kills. Now if 343 wanted to, they could throw in a few grace bullets in the magazine. But at this point, any type of residual damage outside of the 48 bullets required simpy widens the margin of error that the Supp. wielder can take (i.e. grenades, fall damage, etc.)

Phew! That covers everything. I'm probably going to post this onto 343's website to give them some insight. Thanks for reading this far, anyways.

Hey, mind if i post this on the original post of this thread?
 

MockKnizzle

Get Mockfucked
Dec 24, 2012
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Zero, I appreciate that you're trying to bring some math into the discussion, but there's some inconsistencies in your numbers and small omissions that are bugging me.

Firstly: The modified BR will be a 4-shot, but the rate of fire is being decreased as well, meaning that you can't just subtract one shot time from it's original TTK. Most likely the new TTK will be somewhere more like 1.5 or 1.6 seconds, still a little longer than the DMR.

Second: You're saying the Carbine has a current TTK of .2s more than the DMR, putting it at about 1.7 seconds. However, by decreasing the number of shots to kill by one, you're saying that the TTK is decreased by 0.7s?
Using these numbers, the current TTK of ~1.7 / 8 shots = 0.213 seconds/shot. Assuming the rate of fire doesn't change, the new TTK would be 0.213 sec/shot * 7 shots = 1.49 seconds, which is almost exactly equal to the DMR. I have no idea where you got the idea that the modified Carbine TTK would be faster, cause that's just not true.

Third: The changes to the Light Rifle will make the distance where the reticule turns red (autoaim is enabled) equal to that of the DMR, not the BR.

Fourth: All automatics are getting a damage buff, which will decrease their TTKs, not increase them. They are also getting an auto-aim decrease, which will require players to be more accurate in how they aim, but doesn't change the accuracy or spread of the weapon.

Source - straight from the bulletin.
 

FatThe2nd

Proficient
Feb 7, 2013
188
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Zero, I appreciate that you're trying to bring some math into the discussion, but there's some inconsistencies in your numbers and small omissions that are bugging me.

Firstly: The modified BR will be a 4-shot, but the rate of fire is being decreased as well, meaning that you can't just subtract one shot time from it's original TTK. Most likely the new TTK will be somewhere more like 1.5 or 1.6 seconds, still a little longer than the DMR.

Second: You're saying the Carbine has a current TTK of .2s more than the DMR, putting it at about 1.7 seconds. However, by decreasing the number of shots to kill by one, you're saying that the TTK is decreased by 0.7s?
Using these numbers, the current TTK of ~1.7 / 8 shots = 0.213 seconds/shot. Assuming the rate of fire doesn't change, the new TTK would be 0.213 sec/shot * 7 shots = 1.49 seconds, which is almost exactly equal to the DMR. I have no idea where you got the idea that the modified Carbine TTK would be faster, cause that's just not true.

Third: The changes to the Light Rifle will make the distance where the reticule turns red (autoaim is enabled) equal to that of the DMR, not the BR.

Fourth: All automatics are getting a damage buff, which will decrease their TTKs, not increase them. They are also getting an auto-aim decrease, which will require players to be more accurate in how they aim, but doesn't change the accuracy or spread of the weapon.

Source - straight from the bulletin.

Dat Math
 

RogerDodger

Master
Jan 20, 2013
954
472
390
USA
Firstly: The modified BR will be a 4-shot, but the rate of fire is being decreased as well, meaning that you can't just subtract one shot time from it's original TTK. Most likely the new TTK will be somewhere more like 1.5 or 1.6 seconds, still a little longer than the DMR.

Yes, after I posted this I realized that the original is actually closer to a 1.6 original. Therefore, they would have to pair a ROF decrease with the 4-burst to get it closer to 1.5 , as it would be somewhere around 1.40 without this.

Second: You're saying the Carbine has a current TTK of .2s more than the DMR, putting it at about 1.7 seconds. However, by decreasing the number of shots to kill by one, you're saying that the TTK is decreased by 0.7s?
Using these numbers, the current TTK of ~1.7 / 8 shots = 0.213 seconds/shot. Assuming the rate of fire doesn't change, the new TTK would be 0.213 sec/shot * 7 shots = 1.49 seconds, which is almost exactly equal to the DMR. I have no idea where you got the idea that the modified Carbine TTK would be faster, cause that's just not true.

I got that idea by replacing a shield-down value of 7 to 6, in my Halo Weapons Spreadsheet. Btw, the burst value function for both the LR and BR is broken. The BR TTK above was done by analyzing video footage independent of the function.

Third: The changes to the Light Rifle will make the distance where the reticule turns red (autoaim is enabled) equal to that of the DMR, not the BR.

Oops, yeah, that's what I meant.

Fourth: All automatics are getting a damage buff, which will decrease their TTKs, not increase them. They are also getting an auto-aim decrease, which will require players to be more accurate in how they aim, but doesn't change the accuracy or spread of the weapon.

Uh... Yeah. Just so it's more clear what I meant:

Proposed TTKs (explained below)
*DMR: 1.47
*BR: 1.4 (1.5 is ROF reduced)
*Carbine: 1.4
*LR (beam): 1.4
** LR (burst): 1.4
AR: 1.3
Storm Rifle: 1.3
Suppressor: 1.0
 

FREEDOM COBRA

Distinguished
Jan 18, 2013
890
348
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Woah woah woah.

The People that complain are fans, that see things that need to be changed,.
The People the DON'T complain, are fanboys.

If you don't complain, NOTHING will be changed, and we will not have had the DMR nerfed in the first place.
We wouldn't have gotten Forge Island, and we wouldn't have gotten the "X" system.
As a Consumer, I best Damn Well Complain, if a game I spent $560 Dollars on (You read that right), is WORSE then is predecessors
Yea, BRING BACK THE GRENADIER HELMET & REACH SHOTGUN DESIGN!!!

Back on topic, I've always though the LR need that buff. The 3-round burst still needs a buff, its like trying to kill someone with Plasma Pistol.