Halo Legendary Slayer

[theSpinCycle]

Generally br play is more precise than holding down the trigger with the ar
If you miss a shot with a br you die, miss a coupke rounds with an ar, you still have a chance
There is more variability with br shots than with the ar

What about this logic:

If you don't have your reticle on the enemy for most of the time with the ar you die, if your reticle is pointed somewhere else for half a second with the br you stil have a chance.

How can we tell if one is better quantitatively?

 

[SOLIDSNAKEee]

What about this logic:

If you don't have your reticle on the enemy for most of the time with the ar you die, if your reticle is pointed somewhere else for half a second with the br you stil have a chance.

How can we tell if one is better quantitatively?

It comes down to personal preference and what map you're playing on.

 

[PandaMan]

Pretty much this ^

I like BR play better.

 

[FREEDOM COBRA]

I'm an AR man.

 

[RogerDodger]

Making reference to Halo 4 Weapon Stats...

PandaManWhile I've never heard the comment you responded to either, I definitely object to BR starts in competitive games (LR is superior IMO because less spread / recoil, scope + unscope combos)

Due to the June Weapons update, the stats on LR hipfire make it entirely worthless against any precision weapon. You're forced to scope for practically every shot except for the fourth, which you can supplement with the burst feature for a headshot. BR does have more recoil, true, but that's only because it has burst mode in all circumstances. In that case, the DMR and LR would be equally as effective in regards to recoil management. People probably use the BR or DMR, because they are able to effectively use both hip and ADS fire in many situations.

If you don't have your reticle on the enemy for most of the time with the ar you die, if your reticle is pointed somewhere else for half a second with the br you stil have a chance. How can we tell if one is better quantitatively?

Because the AR suffers from conic accuracy, while the BR is relatively linear in its recoil pattern. We can already rule out any distance that the BR cannot shoot 100% accurately to not be included in the test. From there it's a comparison to which kills faster, over what distance. Assuming you fire both guns as fast as possible, and there are no human errors (you're both standing still to test), everything should be controlled.

If you wanted to go about this further, you could compare theoretical Time to Kill values to see the percent loss in efficiency of the AR.
AR TKK: 1.20 sec
BR TTK: 1.43 sec
AR needs less than 83.9% of its shots connecting to become less efficient than that BR.

 

[WhackyGordon]

I've been enjoying it. The population is kinda painful though - they shouldn't have released it at the same time as the contest. In fact, they should have released this a long time ago. I don't know what all the tweaking and testing they talked about was for. This is the formula that's been tweaked and tested for the last decade. And touting it as a 'brand-new experience in MM' is fucking retarded. Makes them sound even more oblivious than they appear to be.
Overall 343 have managed to convey (to me) the fact that one person there knows what the fuck is going on (probably Bravo), and the rest of them are under the impression they're developing platformers for Activision or something.

I think the AR still has too much magnetism, now that it's such a focal point of gameplay. There's little incentive to switch because everybody is charging around with them and little gameplay is happening at longer ranges. The reason AR starts worked in previous games (imo) was because the AR sucked harder. The Magnum too. In H4 they're both significantly more effective, the AR more-so, and can easily outgun a BR with less than perfect handling at medium range.
Hell, I've been ARing snipers at long range and not losing every time. It's disgusting. I mean, from the top of red across to sniper spawn, I regularly strip shields off snipers and send them back down the ramp. With an Assault Rifle. And I mean it's great that with some skill you can make it outperform it's niche, but it doesn't fill the role of a crappy CQC weapon to spawn with that you want to replace ASAP. The Magnum would do a better job, but it still wouldn't be perfect.

Other than that, I wouldn't mind if maps had more precision weapon pick-ups in general. There are a decent amount, but I often find myself with no option but an AR, particularly upon JIPing into a game. I think part of that is the ridiculously fast weapon despawn time. The game is still tuned for PODs and loadouts with mountains of ammo. They need to compensate better with more weapon spawns.

And yeah - splazers in a small CQC map with no vehicles is retarded. Feels action-sackey. They should be swapped for something a little more sensible like a sniper weapon (preferably a no-spare-clip binary rifle) or maybe a railgun.

 

[theSpinCycle]

Making reference to Halo 4 Weapon Stats...


Due to the June Weapons update, the stats on LR hipfire make it entirely worthless against any precision weapon. You're forced to scope for practically every shot except for the fourth, which you can supplement with the burst feature for a headshot. BR does have more recoil, true, but that's only because it has burst mode in all circumstances. In that case, the DMR and LR would be equally as effective in regards to recoil management. People probably use the BR or DMR, because they are able to effectively use both hip and ADS fire in many situations.


Because the AR suffers from conic accuracy, while the BR is relatively linear in its recoil pattern. We can already rule out any distance that the BR cannot shoot 100% accurately to not be included in the test. From there it's a comparison to which kills faster, over what distance. Assuming you fire both guns as fast as possible, and there are no human errors (you're both standing still to test), everything should be controlled.

If you wanted to go about this further, you could compare theoretical Time to Kill values to see the percent loss in efficiency of the AR.
AR TKK: 1.20 sec
BR TTK: 1.43 sec
AR needs less than 83.9% of its shots connecting to become less efficient than that BR.

I am talking about better from a game design perspective, not a player perspective. Anyways, a few things:

LR does not force scoping. Only one shot has to be scoped for a 4sk. on 110/110 damage, you can scope the first two for a 3sk.
How are you comparing the AR's "conic accuracy" to BR's "linear recoil pattern"? Are they not two different things? Am I misunderstanding?
The BR cannot shoot 100% accurately at almost any distance. If I had to guess at what range you would get a 4sk every time with 100 trials, I would say about 15 meters.
The BR does not kill in 1.43 seconds. It is faster since each shot takes a different number of frames (12, 11, 12, 11 or something like that, the numbers are escaping me right now, it is something like 1.3 seconds).

 

[RogerDodger]

LR does not force scoping. Only one shot has to be scoped for a 4sk. on 110/110 damage, you can scope the first two for a 3sk.

Hm. Should probably test that, I assumed it was gone since they patched that a long while ago before the TU.

How are you comparing the AR's "conic accuracy" to BR's "linear recoil pattern"? Are they not two different things? Am I misunderstanding?

They are two different things. Conic accuracy happens with automatics, when multiple shots in succession distort the reticule and cause it to expand over time. BR and other Precisions don't do this, as they have such a long recovery window that your crosshairs reset fast. Basically, I'm saying this makes the BR more accurate.

The BR cannot shoot 100% accurately at almost any distance. If I had to guess at what range you would get a 4sk every time with 100 trials, I would say about 15 meters.

Haven't tested this after the TU, but especially with ADSing, you can still reach pretty far out. Certainly more than 15m. And of course that assumes your target is standing still.

The BR does not kill in 1.43 seconds. It is faster since each shot takes a different number of frames (12, 11, 12, 11 or something like that, the numbers are escaping me right now, it is something like 1.3 seconds).

You can look on that formula sheet for yourself, but I derived those values from the 3 frames it takes to fire each of the three bullets, and the extra 11 frames used as delay time.

 

[theSpinCycle]

They are two different things. Conic accuracy happens with automatics, when multiple shots in succession distort the reticule and cause it to expand over time. BR and other Precisions don't do this, as they have such a long recovery window that your crosshairs reset fast. Basically, I'm saying this makes the BR more accurate.

Alright, I guess we use different terms for the same thing. You say conic accuracy, I say bloom. Anyways, FYI, the BR has invisible bloom. It's minor and not really noticeable (it's masked by the spread), but it's there anyways. In fact, practically every weapon in the game has some form of invisible bloom, some better than others (the Carbine was awful pre-TU).

Haven't tested this after the TU, but especially with ADSing, you can still reach pretty far out. Certainly more than 15m. And of course that assumes your target is standing still.

All credits for the below stuff goes to K2Five, who did extensive testing of the various primary rifles early on in H4's lifespan.

The below video is for 12 bullet BR kills; post-TU has 11 bullet kills.

For 12 bullet kills:
31m unzoomed -> 12% 4sk 88% 5sk
62m zoomed -> 36% 4sk 64% 5sk
45m zoomed -> 68% 4sk 32% 5sk
25m zoomed -> 100% 4sk
25m unzoomed -> 56% 4sk 44% 5sk
Average -> 54.4% 4sk 45.6% 5sk

Obviously the math is slightly different with 11 bullet kills. Square the 5sk numbers (x% chance that one bullet misses -> 2 events where one bullet misses = x^2) and subtract from 100 to get a decent approximation of the 4sk numbers.

With the 13 bullet pre-TU time, you have about a 45% chance of a bullet missing. If you want to work out the rest of the probabilities, go ahead. Anyways, if you're talking unzoomed accuracy (for the sake of consistency, I assume you would, since the AR doesn't have a scope), the BR has a very small unzoomed range that it can consistently kill in.

You can look on that formula sheet for yourself, but I derived those values from the 3 frames it takes to fire each of the three bullets, and the extra 11 frames used as delay time.

nvm, you're right. Just checked again, 1.43 sec minimum killtime for the BR.